Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Bleach (manga)/1

Bleach (manga)

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Result: No consensus. Or perhaps more accurately, nobody other than nominator and major editor wanted to contribute to the discussion. I'm going to take a leaf out of FAC's book, and restart this GAR, in the hope that reviewers will be encouraged to address whether the current article meets the criteria or not. Please comment at WT:GAR if you think this is a good idea or not. Geometry guy 18:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

This article was listed as GA on May 7, 2007, however the version passed did NOT meet the GA requirements. It failed all aspects of criteria 2 and 3, having multiple unreferenced statements, being almost entirely plot and in-universe information, lacking several critical and basic sections for an anime series that are called for in the MoS and that are required to have considered addressing the major aspects of the article. The article has improved since then, however it still fails criteria 2 for having lots of unreferenced information, and criteria 3 for its excessive plot details and in-universe information, and its failure to use summary style for the character section when there are multiple character lists.

As this article never should have been passed as GA in the first place, and is still not GA quality, I feel it should be delisted. As a note, the former media list was recently merged into the article, which is causing some contention. So for fairness, here is a link to the pre-merge version], which still has all of the same issues, just to a greater degree.

AnmaFinotera (talk) 08:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment While not disputing the delisting based on the current version, you do realize that the MOS was substantially different at the time this passed, I hope. Dekimasuよ! 08:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Was it so different it included no sections for anything non-fictional beyond the basic media info? It had no production or reception sections at all? AnmaFinotera (talk) 13:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, in fact, it was. (To be specific, WP:MOS-MANGA was so different from now that it was a redlink.)
I'll agree the article needs significant improvement to meet the new criteria, but it was a legitimate WP:WIAGA pass a year ago. Also worth noting that at the time, WP:WAF was a draft with no official standing, and that when it came to OOU information, the existing version[1] of the article structure guide for manga articles stated merely that "A Reception section can be added, but it must be well cited."
--erachima talk 00:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

That still doesn't account for it passing while having so much unreferenced content (not counting the plot). Regardless, it doesn't meet GA now and hasn't in a long time, so it should be delisted as the fixings needed are not quick ones.AnmaFinotera (talk) 00:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

As I said, I agree it no longer meets the criteria. However, I'm still completely failing to see your complaint with the original pass. WP:V says, as it always has, that information only must be cited if it is likely to be challenged. The version of the article passed met that requirement (the plot info is actually overcited in my opinion), every single statement was cited except for a few completely trivial ones like the number of episodes and chapters currently published. --erachima talk 14:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment Just a note - good article reassessment tends to focus on the current edition of the article rather than the one that got passed, and the reassessment option is usually for articles which are liminal, or for which you feel like you might be biased on. If the fixes needed are really so many as you say, then writing them out in full and explicit detail on the talk page and then delisting it yourself may have been the better option. -Malkinann (talk) 23:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• Had I realized the article was GA before the skirmish, I would have just delisted in the manner you describe, however I felt I was disqualified from just delisting because I have edited the article, even if briefly. I also I did not want to appear to just be retaliating because of the arguments on the talk page. I wanted its delisting to be done by neutral parties, but also feel strongly that it needs to be done. Even discounting what I felt was a bad passing of the article back when it was passed, it should be fairly clear that the current article also does not meet GA at all. It has far too much in-universe information, several section stubs, and has too many unreferenced statements. AnmaFinotera (talk) 23:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I see the section stubs, (and by association, the imbalance in the article) but I don't see the unreferenced controversial statements - please be more explicit. -Malkinann (talk) 23:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. I would further point out that the finer points and intricacies of MoS are not GA requirements, per se, although to the extent that they provide an absolute minimum standard, they are. It is up to consensus to determine the extent to which the requirements of WP:MOS-MANGA are essential to this article meeting the good article criteria. I hope we will be able to reach such a consensus. Geometry guy 21:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
  • WP:WIAGA states that the article must comply with the MoS guidelines on "lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation". I know it currently needs to be updated to meet new subject-specific layout guidelines, and I should probably give the others a readover to see if there have been any substantial changes to them. --erachima talk 22:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

    I actually don't think WP:WIAGA needs to be updated. The number one rule is WP:IAR, which states that improving the encyclopedia trumps all other requirements. The point of 1b is that it indicates the kinds of major MoS requirements that are essential to good articles. If consensus cannot determine how important particular MoS issues are for GA status, we may need to have a debate and refine the guideline, but don't put the cart before the horse: guidelines reflect consensus, they don't determine it. Geometry guy 22:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

• Maintain GA status. After thoroughly rereading the manual of style pages that WP:WIAGA requires compliance with, as well as the new project specific layout guidelines, I believe the current version of the Bleach (manga) article does satisfy the Good Article requirements. To address AnmaFinotera's specific complaints:

• "The article has lots of unreferenced information." It does not. Or to be more accurate, I have repeatedly attempted to find any unverified statements in the page and don't see any. Please give specific examples if you think you see some.
• "The article contains excessive plot details and in universe information." Plot information in Wikipedia articles is supposed to be kept succinct while including all necessary information. The article meets this standard. It uses a mere two paragraphs to introduce the basic plot, has descriptions for only the most major members of its cast, and summarizes the remaining characters by group to further reduce the amount of in universe information necessary for reader understanding. The "setting" section similarly gives the bare amount of background necessary for understanding of articles like List of Bleach episodes. (I believe this also addresses your point about character summaries.)
• "The article has been significantly changed recently." Indeed it has, and that's a good thing. Stability is a requirement for GA attainment in the first place, but being under improvement is not grounds for removal of GA status. Bleach is an ongoing series, and more information becomes available (in English, especially) over time, so the occasional revamp should be expected.

--erachima talk 00:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

For unreferenced statements, now granted part of these do come from the recent merge (and those alone wouldn't have been a need for GA reassessment unless they stay that way for months), but giving all examples for thoroughness:

• Characters - contains seemingly interpretive statements that are unsourced, and for this particular type of media, the specific statements about characters should be sourced, particularly the character section lead in
• Setting - over half the section (which was from multiple merges long enough go that it should have been fixed by now)
• Manga - entire section
• CDs - entire section
• Films - most of the section
• Musical - whole section
• Other - whole section which is a stub

• There is nothing succinct about it. There is a character list, so why is there still FOUR screens worth of character information in the main article? That fails WP:SUMMARY style. Its also excessive compared to the rest of the article. Ironically, the plot itself is horrendously short for such a lengthy series, and is really nothing more than a teaser one might expect to find on a DVD box set.
• I didn't question the stability.

Additional issues I've noticed is that the article does not meet the completeness requirements as it is completely lacking in production information, which has never been in the article. It gives no real information on the differences, if any, between the manga and anime. The reception section seems rather short for the series as well. Wolf's Rain is only 26 eps and a two volume manga but its reception section is longer than that. For Bleach, it should at least be as lengthy and thorough as Fullmetal Alchemist. It also fails WP:LEAD in that the lead is far too short. AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

You appear to be operating under the flawed assumption that every phrase must be cited, when according to WP:V and WP:CITE, it is only controversial statements that must be directly cited. Everything else is satisfied by general references -- in this case, the manga. (See Wikipedia:Citing sources#General references versus inline citations) When I prepared the article for its GA pass, I left inline refs off of the statements which come from major plot points or major characters, because they are uncontroversial, and carefully cited everything that was more detailed knowledge.

• Characters. None of those statements are interpretative, though if you insist, the opening paragraph could be given some specific references.
• Setting. The Heuco Mundo subsection is uncited, it is true. However, since pretty much everything in it comes from Bleach manga chapter 245 that's a trivial fix.
• Manga. All nicely cited in the sub-article it links to, List of Bleach chapters.
• CDs. Well, that used to be cited before the media list merge, when the link was lost. (Wait a second, weren't you the one who did that merge? Preserving references is an important part of merging content.) [2]
• Films. Again, cited in the sub-article.
• Musical. Sub-article.
• Other. Trivially addressed. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

• Succinctness. Why are there 4 pages? Well, probably because you have a low resolution monitor. If you want to crunch numbers here, the main Bleach article's character section is 10 kb of text, and summarizes articles totaling roughly 500 kilobytes. Since the Bleach character articles currently consist of one article on each main character, one list of characters for each race, and a few major character articles that are currently in merge limbo (and not represented on the main page), this means we are using one short paragraph to summarize each sub-article.

And on your last couple complaints, I've never seen so much as a creator interview on which to base a production section (I do see a partially complete databook scanlation project which might have something of use, but don't hold your breath), and the reception section can, and is, being expanded. --erachima talk 02:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

You are one with a mistaken view. For a GA article, all statements must be cited, and you can't just claim "oh, read the manga" when making interpretations, and only pure plot summary can be left unsourced. For character sections, yes, it must be sourced, otherwise character lists wouldn't need references cause you could just say "read it and watch the anime and its all there." Also, the refs can't just be said to be in the subarticle, they must be in both. Or, to make it easier, in being brought to GA review, all unsourced statements have been challenged and must now be sourced. And no, I do not have a low resolution monitor. I'm browsing at the standard 1024x768. Um, I just checked the old media list, that reference wasn't in there at all, or it would have been merged. As for the production section, there is absolutely nothing in any volume of the manga discussing character creation, series planning, etc? Nothing in the anime DVD extras? And nothing in the character books, data books, guidebooks, at all? I find that a bit odd... AnmaFinotera (talk) 03:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:WIAGA criteria 2b: "at minimum, [the article] provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons". Those are the classes of information that must be in-line reffed to meet the GA criteria. If you wish to personally challenge all the statements in the article, that's fine, and I'll get you the references, but that is not the GA standard. Nor, for that matter, is it necessary to meet the FA standard, whose requirements defer to WP:CITE on where in-line refs are required, and whose articles as a general rule do not contain references in their in universe sections at all. (For a random example from the literature FAs, To Kill a Mockingbird. Promoted this month, not a single reference in the plot summary section.) You are asking for a higher standard of referencing than any criteria on this encyclopedia does, including WP:BLP.

The old media list did have that link. reference 3 here.

The volumes do not contain useful character biographies for the purposes of development info, with the possible exception of what rock songs Kubo identifies with each of the main cast, but without more traditional development info those are nothing more than trivia. The databooks might, but they've never been translated (except the one that consisted wholly of gag comics and powerlevel charts, neither of which helps us). Viz is releasing the first character databook October 21st 2008, so perhaps we'll have something to work with there this fall. --erachima talk 04:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say the plot summary needed them, I said the character and setting sections. Reference 3 is for a single character CD, not the entire CD section, and goes to a different page on the sony site.AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The character sections are nothing but a bunch of focused plot summary. (For that reference, click the link at the bottom marked "back".) --erachima talk 04:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Wait a second, I think I see what you're complaining about with the references. Are you thinking the second half of Ichigo's summary is an interpretive statement? Because it isn't, that was a directly stated piece of character development they gave him early in the manga. --erachima talk 04:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay...several of them seem interpreative, but I'll trust the rest are the same, something stated in the plot? (like Rukia being cool-tempered, etc). What about the lead in for the section? And does human really need to be defined as as a character type? (for some reason it looks like we're really insulting people's intelligence here...I'd hope they know what they are if they are reading Wikipedia :P ) AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, Bleach humans are subtly different than the real thing, and they're a player character race, so to speak, so leaving them out would be negligent. And yes, everything there comes straight out of the plot (though in Rukia's case, I notice her article has a reception section that discusses her personality, so I've changed the sentence to match that). --erachima talk 05:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Psst...are you going to add the references noted above to the article? AnmaFinotera (talk) 16:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but at the moment engineering homework deadlines are a bit more pressing. I can probably get it done this afternoon. --erachima talk 17:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)