Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Batik/1

< Wikipedia:Good article reassessment

Batik

edit

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review
Result: Kept. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:05, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article has uncited statements throughout the article, including entire paragraphs, and "citation needed" tags from Jan. 2024. There's also "better source needed" tags from 2021 that need to be resolved in order to maintain its GA status. Z1720 (talk) 00:21, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed all the uncited, citation needed, and better source needed issues. I've copy-edited the text to fix repetition, vague claims, and anything that sounded promotional. I've merged some near-duplicate sections and removed a lot of gratuitous images. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems very odd that the version that was promoted in 2014 was about the technique used in a number of countries, whereas the version now is about "an Indonesian technique". I'm not convinced that change is in the direction of neutrality, especially as the technique is much older than Indonesia. CMD (talk) 13:30, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[a later reply to Chipmunkdavis] I agree that the page focus is unclear, but the term's use is also mixed. The english word batik are mostly used to refer Indonesian batik, but it is also used to refer generic resist-dye methods that are technically similar but culturally unrelated crafts like Chinese batik. Perhaps it is best to clarify at the top that the article is mostly used to discuss Indonesian batik? Alteaven (talk) 03:54, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article is about Batik in general, not only Indonesian, and that is how it went through GA back in 2014. Since then much Indonesian material has been added, risking unbalance as well as loss of focus. We would be quite justified in splitting out much of the Indonesian material to Batik in Indonesia, leaving this article to cover all countries relatively evenly, with Indonesia's chapter having a "main" link at the top and a paragraph in "summary style" giving a brief resumé of the linked article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:52, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see that Indonesian batik patterns has already been split out; that would be one component of Batik in Indonesia. Obviously it goes a part of the way towards what I was suggesting, but numerous aspects of Indonesian batik culture remain as unbalanced elements in the article, and I feel more sure than before that splitting is now necessary. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:19, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Chiswick Chap: Yes, I think that that section is the most prone to contain lengthy digression and unsubstantiated claims. I agree that a separate Indonesian batik page is perhaps warranted. Though I am unsure how to rebalance the current batik article since most scholarly article are indeed about Indonesian batik. Any suggestion? Alteaven (talk) 06:28, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we should be careful to focus on batik-the-wax-resist-dyeing-process, which is after all what the term means, and move aspects of Indonesian culture such as its use for ceremonies out to other article(s). If we have a Batik in Indonesia article then we can put all the Indonesian culture, ceremonies, and museums there, which would go a long way to making this article more balanced. Oh, and we can move out the two Indonesian infoboxes which are seriously distorting the article, too. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:42, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, I've boldly gone... Alteaven, would you like to say a little more about non-Javanese batik in the 'Indonesia' section? Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:25, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Chiswick Chap: I think its fine like that. The only section left to edit is technique, or is the current state okay? Alteaven (talk) 08:18, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the techniques section is just right. There's an uncited statement in 'Indonesia' which needs a bit of expansion really. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to add something in few days to come, but I think the current overall version is much less cluttered Alteaven (talk) 08:45, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, a huge improvement. I see you've removed the uncited statement, so we're all done here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:47, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, wonderful. Thank you Alteaven (talk) 09:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[an earlier reply to Chipmunkdavis] Both then (the text I brought to GA) and now, the article covered batik from Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Sri Lanka, China, and Africa, and the old lead said so. To restore that position, I've tweaked the current lead to reflect that more clearly, moved some doubtfully-neutral Indonesian claims out of the lead, and trimmed the Indonesian material in the lead for due weight. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:34, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article did cover it, but the focus had shifted. Thanks for the quick work. Some heavy copyediting is still needed, I don't fully understand the first sentence of the History section, and the entire Culture section needs a rewrite. There may be a need for some source checks as well. Moving a bit beyond GA issues, having 3 infoboxes seems a bit much, especially on mobile, but thankfully they're each not too long. There are a lot of subsections, but they seem justified by the diverse subject matter. CMD (talk) 14:22, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to copyedit a bit, but you are indeed going beyond the GA criteria now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:26, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The copyediting is not beyond the GACR, it is very firmly in GACR1. CMD (talk) 14:35, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done already. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:40, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those were just examples. Some of the batik "is close to magical elements from the kingdoms in Central Java and Yogyakarta", others are "identical and representative of Sundanese culture in general", other odd bits are here and there. CMD (talk) 14:55, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Um, ok, will fix those, but it's no good just waving at the whole article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:01, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I found all these things on a very quick read, plus other errors I fixed or tagged. I strongly suspect a more detailed look will turn up even more. The process doesn't require doing a line by line breakdown here though given the state the prose was in. CMD (talk) 15:32, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've been through most of the Indonesianised text, will check the rest. My point was that for a fair process, comments need to be itemised to things that can be specifically actioned, not lumped, so there's a way to respond to each item decently. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:18, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think this article is ready for reassessment. May I be allowed time to contribute to the article further? Alteaven (talk) 22:33, 30 August 2024 (UTC) Oh my, the history section is also a mess. It is full of unsubstantiated claims. Alteaven (talk) 23:46, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Alteaven: If editors are actively working on an article, I am happy to have a GAR remain open. Z1720 (talk) 05:52, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alteaven and I seem to be happy with the now-reshaped article. We have split out Batik in Indonesia and Indonesian batik patterns. The article is now balanced and globalised, effectively an updated version of the 2014 GA text and of not much greater length than that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:15, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Alteaven and Chiswick Chap: Some things I noticed when reviewing the latest version of the article:

  • I added a cn tag for the "Written batik" section. The first paragraph of "Malaysia" also needs a citation, and there is a hidden note for a citation for National Geographic. Is this the citation for this paragraph?
    • Written batik: Restored the refs.
    • Malaysia para 1: Restored the hidden ref.
  • I think the amount of images needs to be reduced, as Wikipedia is not a gallery. Lots of images make the page hard to load for some editors, and, as someone who is unfamiliar with the topic, I am not sure what I am supposed to notice in each of the images. The images at the beginning of the "Cultures" section might be better served if they were beside the culture they were to represent.
Respectfully, I do not agree. The images are in an appropriate amount for topic of visual arts, and they can be related to the text. History section show samples which are mentioned in text. In keeping with the globalized theme, varied examples needed to be shown. In the technique, the images show close up of relevant implement and how it is applied. Placement for images in the culture section however can be changed as suggested. Alteaven (talk) 15:41, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. The article contains no gratuitous images or galleries. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:35, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead does not summarise all major aspects of the article. Missing aspects include the history of the artwork and European interest in the 19th century, techniques, description of patterns and motifs, and differences in the tradition in major cultures highlighted. References in the lead should probably be moved to the article body, per MOS:LEADCITE
  • The article needs a copyedit. I have done some of it myself, but it would be useful if a subject-matter expert did this to avoid changing the meaning of sentences.

Those are my comments so far. Z1720 (talk) 15:17, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Batik/1&oldid=1245160743"