Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Apollo 11 launch

Apollo 11 launch edit

Original

Reason: This is an amazingly iconic image of the world's first lunar mission and the crowning moment of the Space Race. The presence of the flag with the Apollo 11/Saturn V at the very moment the vessel reaches Max Q makes it a one-of-a-kind snapshot of a defining moment in American history, never to be seen again and impossible to duplicate.
Proposed caption: The American flag heralds the flight of Apollo 11, the world's first Lunar landing mission. The Apollo 11 Saturn V space vehicle lifted off with astronauts Neil A. Armstrong, Michael Collins and Edwin E. Aldrin, Jr., at 9:32 a.m. EDT July 16, 1969, from Kennedy Space Center's Launch Complex 39A. During the eight-day mission, Armstrong and Aldrin descended in a lunar module to the Moon's surface while Collins orbited overhead in the Command Module. The two astronauts spent 22 hours on the Moon, including two and one-half hours outside the lunar module. They gathered samples of lunar material and deployed scientific instruments to transmit data about the lunar environment before rejoining Collins in the Command Module for the return trip to Earth.
Articles this image appears in: Apollo 11 Saturn V United States technological and industrial history Max Q
Creator: NASA

Support as nominator Bullzeye^{(Complaint Dept./Brilliant Acts)} 06:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support with reservations. First, this is a pretty image, because of the flag, with patriotic appeal to Americans (and I feel out of politeness most non-Americans can recognize the positive associations as such). In that sense this is a good illustration of the historical pride of the moon launch. Second, and more applicable to encyclopedic purposes, this is a rare image showing a transonic vapor cloud, or Prandtl-Glauert singularity, which can be visible under certain conditions.e.g. There are a few shuttle launch photos that show one, but I've never seen one just like this. As for reservations, I am slightly concerned about the attribution of the photo to Max Q. I'm not sure (or persuaded by the sources) that Max Q represents the moment of flight here, or that Max Q and transonic vapor clouds happen at the same time or that there's a direct relationship between Max Q and a cloud. I would like to see that key point attributed rather than (apparently) assumed. --Dhartung | Talk 07:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The above comment is correct, the vapor cloud formation is related to passing through the speed of sound and is unrelated to Max Q. Meniscus 20:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The image noise is somewhat of a concern. MER-C 09:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- NASA has a 2400x3000 version here. Much of the noise is present, suggesting they have no better digital version. But it's the one we probably should have regardless. --Dhartung | Talk 11:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Further, this image page lists "Source" as "DIGITAL". This may have been state-of-the-art in 1969. What is the earliest digital photograph on Wikipedia? --Dhartung | Talk 11:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Doing my own refutation here. Apparently in 1969 state of the art was the vidicon, but the typical specs are more like television (e.g. 833 scan lines). Additionally, the super-hi-res version of the photo clearly shows several artifacts such as vertical lines consistent with scanning, and one (near the cloud, to the left) consistent with a scratch on a negative or print. There probably was an analog photograph at one time, but who knows whether it still exists. --Dhartung | Talk 11:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support Great image! The American Flag makes composition even more interesting.--Mbz1 13:50, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Mbz1[reply]
oppose Quality is terrible, I give this a major yawn, and do we really need more US-American symbolism/patriotism featured? There's far better quality photos of the astronauts on the moon itself which are far more interesting. —Pengo 15:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry you don't find this as "interesting" as I do. But trust me when I tell you that these are not shots that are commonly available. There may be video stills of these moments in flight, but the majority of the shots that are found in books or even here are of a) the human activity during the mission, b) the actual liftoff moment, or c) ocean recovery. That there's an in-flight shot that shows a) the craft off vertical and b) at the exact moment it is creating a vapor cloud was news to me. --Dhartung | Talk 18:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

oppose Low resolution, noisy, and a cluttered composition. Overall not among Wikipedia's best. Cacophony 15:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. We should stop offering opinions on this image, and instead upload the full-size version on top of it and go from there. With slight noise reduction in Photoshop of the full-size image, it will fare much better here. Zakolantern 16:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Actually, I'm inclined to contact NASA and see if there is an "original" available. This is a sufficiently rare shot, as I've said above, that it would be fantastic to have a better-quality version, should one be capable of retrieval. --Dhartung | Talk 18:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I uploaded the medium size 1200x1500 version, since the full 2400x3000 file is way too big at 7.7 MB. I'm sure the pic is a scan of the original pic...since digital cameras didn't come around until the 1970's. A little noise clean-up can go a long way for this nomination. Jumping cheese 19:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jumping, digital imaging was certainly around in 1969. If I can both fully understand and explain vidicon technology, not guaranteed, I believe it is essentially an analog TV camera translated to digital format for recording on a tape cassette. Not a "true" digital camera but a form of digital imaging nonetheless. Regardless, as I've said, NASA's page says "Source: DIGITAL" and I agree with you that is incorrect. It would not, however, have been impossible. --Dhartung | Talk 06:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

oppose Without denying the importance of the USA in space exploration, i don't think a patriotic picture like this one should be in Wikipedia. I think that in an encyclopedy, a picture is interesting for its scientific value (Prandtl-Glauert singularity) or its historic value (First lunar mission), but not because it appeals to American patriotic feelings. I m not one of theses clueless people who think "USA = EVIL", but i really dislike this picture because of its much too strong patriotic point of view. The flag is on the foreground and seems more important than the rocket itself. I would really like a less patriotic picture. Ksempac 20:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would gladly support any photograph that showed a Saturn V with vapor cloud. --Dhartung | Talk 06:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CommentI'm withholding a vote until the higher res pic comes up, but I don't see how this shot is any more encyclopedic than, say, this one, which I happen to prefer. I'd also like to see a resolution to Dhartung's reservations. Matt Deres 20:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I don't disagree that's a lovely shot of the blastoff, but there's more than one stage of flight, especially with a Saturn V, and they have their own characteristics. If we had to choose one image of the first moon launch, I'd probably choose that one as well. I see this one as illustrating a particular aspect of the rocket flight. --Dhartung | Talk 06:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - The picture is quite beautiful as a picture, but it needs to be cleaned up. Try to eliminate some of the smoke. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (ταlκ) 21:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I'm as patriotic as any other American, but (1) the photo is a mess, and (2) the subject matter for encyclopedia purposes is the rocket launch, not the flag, so the image should focus on that. Spikebrennan 22:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above. Chris Buttigieg 18:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, even if the picture was really high quality I would oppose. Many other pictures better represent Apollo 11. Even for American space exploration I think there are better options. gren グレン 20:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have submitted a request to "Ask NASA" for more information on the photograph's origin and whether the original is accessible. Getting an answer may take several days. If anyone has a direct contact at NASA they believe could be helpful, let me know. --Dhartung | Talk 07:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The rocket's inclination at that altitude does not seem correct to me. That suggests to me that the flag was "doctored into the picture" to boost it's propaganda value. I could be wrong though. Can anybody with knowledge about Saturn launch trajectory & speed confirm that the picture seems real? --Roman 16:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Looks fine to me. The Saturn V began to gimbal just 15 seconds after liftoff.[1] Watch the launch and you'll see that near Max Q the angle is comparable. (The photo was taken somewhat downrange, though.) --Dhartung | Talk 12:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not promoted MER-C 09:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]