Wikipedia:Featured list removal candidates/List of micronations/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list removal nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was removed by IMatthew 12:44, 26 September 2009 [1].

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List of micronations

• Featured list candidates/List of micronations/archive1
• Featured list candidates/List of micronations/archive2

• Featured list removal candidates/List of micronations/archive1

Notified: WP Politics, WP Micronations, Micromaster, Ckatz, Andrwsc, Hiberniantears , Yopie, J Milburn

I am nominating this for featured list removal because it does not meet standards for:

(6.) Stability. In the last five weeks there were some 15 reverts, encompassing the majority of the article edits during that time. I.e., practically everything that is being written is being reverted.

These edits include changes by editors User_talk:Peebles05, User_talk:PresidentHogan001, and User_talk:Jackbert, who made no other contributions to Wikipedia. According to administrator User_talk:Hiberniantears, the topic of micronations in general has had "countless AfD's and RfC's". [2]. This subject appears to have been unstable both in the short and long term.

(4.) Structure. The concept of "micronation" covers imaginary, temporary, and physical entities. The table of micronations is simply an alphabetical list that lumps together current, past, imaginary, real, serious and fatuous entities. It's a hindrance to understanding the scope or practical implications of micronations. Two citations that I checked at random were wrong, and one misleading. The unstructured nature of the table encourages uncited entries that are probably non-notable, such as the one I just removed by anon IP 213.106.39.185 (an editor with no other Wikipedia edits).[3] Without structure the list is difficult to protect from vandalism.

(3.) Comprehensiveness. It is critically deficient in that the source is largely a single reference, John Ryan's Micronations (over half the references). His criteria for inclusion — which is the basis for the majority of the table entries — eliminates "landless, virtual nations". [4]. However the Wiki article says it includes nations that are "online, in the minds of their creators". I.e., the primary source and the article have largely different definitions. The Micronations book also avoids micronations that are "fraudlent scammers". The Wiki article says that it will include criminal states. The definition of "micronation" is not coherent, perforce the table cannot be comprehensive.

The article does not meet WP:WIAFL for "reliable sources". Many come from Micronations. This primary source, reads "So whether you're a reactionary, a visionary, a prankster, an egomaniac, or a gun-toting anti-government conspiracy theorist, there's sure to be something here for you". I.e., some material in the book is a prank or a fringe theory. The primary source is unreliable.

Moreover, at this point I have now checked some 10 of the references. There were problems with several, including mis-quoting, misrepresenting, and in one case was the external reference was to a Wiki-blocked site. The references that remain include a broken link [5], links to untranslated non-English pages[6], [7], and links to articles that are trivial [8]. By no stretch of the imagination do the citations represent the highest standards of Wikipedia.

Piano non troppo (talk) 00:38, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment Can you list the completed notifications at the top, as in Wikipedia:Featured list removal candidates/List of Super Bowl champions/archive2? Also, are there any WikiProjects that can be notified? Dabomb87 (talk) 01:18, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Done. My selection criteria were, roughly, editors who made over 10 edits since the beginning of the year (who were not primarily criticized for making vandalism edits).

I didn't see any particular project to notify. Suggestions welcome. Piano non troppo (talk) 01:38, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The ones on the talk page, at least. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Done. Piano non troppo (talk) 02:40, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment I echo everything stated above by Piano non troppo. This topic has been a joke for years. However, there is value within the topic. I.e. a micronation is definitely a thing that deserves coverage here. This article, and related articles were hijacked a long time ago by individuals who seek to promote a boundless definition of micronations. As Piano has described, the sources are tenuous, and the definitions of a micronation know no bounds. Hiberniantears (talk) 06:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

• Comment Would it help if we restored the article to the version at which it was promoted? Dabomb87 (talk) 14:59, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the primary concern isn't really focused on an older version being better than a newer version, so much as the topic itself not being appropriate for featured status to begin with. For example, take a look at the definition of "micronation" in the dictionary... see the problem? This topic has no credible definition, which is not a rarity for Wikipedia, but one could argue that if micronations had existed as a recognized entity for the amount of time the micronation articles assert, then we might have a dictionary definition. A lot of the micronation articles have been abused for the purpose of self-promotion, and we do an intellectual disservice to any casual readers who stumble upon micronation articles in Wikipedia as they end up walking away deeply misinformed about the topic. Taking four examples from the list, I think we get a representative idea of how a variety of very different subjects are innapropriately grouped together in order to innapropriately lend credence to modern internet clubs that bill themselves as micronations:

• Empire of Atlantium - A club run by George Cruickshank, aka User:Gene Poole.
• Islands of Refreshment - Between 1811 and 1816, a small group of sailors set themselves up as farmers on an uninhabbited island in the Atlantic Ocean known as Tristan da Cunha. The guy who declared the island his sovereign territory died in 1812. Unlike the Empire of Atlantium, the Islands of Refreshment did not sell their stamps and coins on the internet, and create a Wikipedia article for the purpose of self-promotion.
• Principality of Marlborough - Back in 1993 an Australian farmer got behind on his bills, resulting in his bank attempting to reposses his farm. In a tantrum, the farmer declared his farm an independent country. This last eleven days, at which time the police stormed the farm and evicted him.
• New Utopia - An internet fraud that ended when the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission took legal action against it.

These things are simply unrelated, and presenting a list of them as a featured article only undermines the credibility of Wikipedia. Hiberniantears (talk) 19:53, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

• Delist due to short-term stability issues—the article is at AfD and the edit warring is concerning—long-standing disagreements on what constitutes a micronation, leading to inherent stability and comprehensive concerns (especially scope); and the apparent unreliability of the book source. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

• Delist Following my comments, and those of User talk:Hiberniantears and Dabomb87. Also I'll add that the main source seems like a whimsical exercise from publisher of non-political subjects -- travel guides. I'm not the only person who thinks so...this (blog) classifies it as a "travel humor book". [9] The publisher is not established on this topic, the book itself is not reliable, and the Wiki article's references are variously misquoted, misleading, non-English. This is one of those potentially worthy subjects where external scholarship is lagging. Piano non troppo (talk) 02:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
• Delist. It was promoted at a time when FLC was suffering from a lack of reviews (and a lack of quality reviews) to the point that one support was considered consensus. At the time of its FLCs, this list suffered from the same issues listed above (except the stability issue). WP:FL? demands it "comprehensively covers the defined scope", yet there is no defined scope here, micronations are added on a whim (no inclusion/exclusion criteria). --maclean (talk) 17:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.