Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Listed buildings in Sleaford/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:26, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Listed buildings in Sleaford

Featured list candidates/Listed buildings in Sleaford/archive1

Nominator(s): Noswall59 (talk) 10:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sleaford is a small town in the rural English East Midlands. It's not particularly well known, but it has over 180 buildings that have been "listed", which means they've been officially designated architecturally, culturally or historically significant. They include the remains of a castle, a pub named after bull-baiting, a building which one critic called a "puzzle", and one of the longest brick industrial facades in the UK. A lot of the other listed buildings are more modest, but they come together into an pretty, quintessential English market town. Based on similar FLs like Runcorn's, this list summarises all of Sleaford's listed buildings. The lead introduces Sleaford and explains the listing process, while placing the more notable specimens within the context of the town's historical development. Sortable, reliably sourced, well-written and comprehensive, I believe it meets (or very nearly meets) the criteria to be featured. Technical terms inevitably crop up; they are linked on first use and I have sought to minimise them where possible.

Note: I have scoured the internet for free images of the listed buildings, but the majority are not photographed in a way compatible with Wikipedia's licensing requirements. This is a shame and something I want to rectify in the long term, but I am not in a position to photograph them myself at this time – and, thankfully, the really interesting buildings are illustrated in the article. —Noswall59 (talk) 10:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility review (MOS:DTAB)

Tables need captions, which allow screen reader software to jump straight to named tables without having to read out all of the text before it each time. Visual captions can be added by putting |+ caption_text as the first line of the table code; if that caption would duplicate a nearby section header, you can make it screen-reader-only by putting |+ {{sronly|caption_text}} instead.
Tables need column scopes for all column header cells, which in combination with row scopes lets screen reader software accurately determine and read out the headers for each cell of a data table. Column scopes can be added by adding !scope=col to each header cell, e.g. ! Name becomes !scope=col | Name. If the cell spans multiple columns with a colspan, then use !scope=colgroup instead.
Tables need row scopes on the "primary" column for each row (the name, in this case), which in combination with column scopes lets screen reader software accurately determine and read out the headers for each cell of a data table. Row scopes can be added by adding !scope=row to each primary cell, e.g. | Vicarage becomes !scope=row | Vicarage (on its own line). If the cell spans multiple rows with a rowspan, then use !scope=rowgroup instead.
Please see MOS:DTAB for example table code if this isn't clear. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 10:46, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @MPGuy2824: really helpful. I believe I've done this through this edit. —Noswall59 (talk) 12:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Please see the third bullet point above. You need to make the name cell in every row a header cell (it should start with a '!' instead of a '|'). -MPGuy2824 (talk) 13:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MPGuy2824: I've now done this -- is it okay now? —Noswall59 (talk) 14:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Yup, that is fine. I found another issue though. While sorting the grade column, "II" sorts between "I" and "II*". -MPGuy2824 (talk) 09:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MPGuy2824: Good catch -- I've fixed it now. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 09:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Support promotion. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 09:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. —Noswall59 (talk) 14:41, 3 June 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Drive-by comment

Notes which are not complete sentences, eg "A two-storey rendered building", do not need full stops -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:54, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent catch, @ChrisTheDude: I've removed extraneous full-stops here. —Noswall59 (talk) 12:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Comments by Support from KJP1

First off - it's a lovely list and, having read through, I'm looking forward to commenting. This I will have to do in batches, so feel free either to respond as I go along, or wait until I've finished, at which point I shall ping you. I do have two initial thoughts:

Bluelinking

Most of the Grade IIs are unlikely ever to have their own articles, given the difficulty of finding sources for such buildings. As such, I wonder whether it would be better to link them to their main articles, assuming they have such. The best examples are the fifteen listings beginning with the Eastern Cartshed (Ref 110). They all relate to Bass Maltings, Sleaford and many (all?) are actually mentioned in that article. So I wonder whether they could be bluelinked to the Maltings. Another example would be the three (lodge/stable/wall) all related to Westholme House. Again, could they be linked? With a minor tweak to that article, they could all actually be mentioned there. To give you an idea of what I mean, I've tweaked the Westholme House article. If it doesn't appeal, feel free to revert. I'm thinking of this in relation to Criterion 5a, Redlinking. While I appreciate you haven't red-linked them, they could be. Anyways, see what you think.

Excellent idea: I've linked all the Bass-related links to the Maltings article. I've also linked the Westholme-related ones to Westholme House and the two ones related to the Navigation to Sleaford Navigation (archway and Navigation House).

Accessibility

In relation to 5c, while the list reads fine on my laptop/ipad, it doesn't read/look so good on my phone. This is because the lengthy Notes column gives me huge amounts of white space in the left-hand columns. There may well be nothing that can be done about this, but someone more technically-minded than I may have a fix.

Agree, but I'm also not sure what if anything can be done.

So, I shall now go through, leaving comments. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 08:12, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

Note 1 contains an embedded External Link, to this, [The Local Government (Successor Parishes) Order 1973]. I'm no MoS expert, but Wikipedia:EXTERNAL suggests "External links normally should not be placed in the body of an article". I wonder if this would be better as a Reference?

I've formatted this as a reference now. There is Template:Cite legislation UK, but that formats in CS2 not CS1 which is used for the rest of the article, so I've manually formatted the citation to match everything else on the page.

There are a couple expressions of opinion, "a particularly fine example of England's Decorated Gothic", "William Alvey's fine Baroque house". I wonder if these should be supported by cites?

I've added citations to them both

List

Former Maltings - I think Bass & Co. should be linked. Re. cite 23, does it actually support the stated text? I know the Maltings is/was on the At Risk list, but I don't think this cite actually says that.

The BBC article says "English Heritage has welcomed plans to renovate the largest building on its industrial heritage at risk register."

Better still, I've linked to the at-risk register too.

Manor House, Rhodes House - I think the url for Rotberg (cite 26) is wrong, as it's taking me to the Book of Sleaford. And I wonder whether Rhodes, whom I'd probably term an imperialist rather than a colonialist and he is the main illustration for that article, and Frank's learning to ride there is a bit of a detail too far.

I did think it tinkered on the edge of trivia; removed, and also removed Rotberg from the bibliography

Town Hall (Sessions House) - I think this is more accurately described as "Gothic Revival" rather than "Gothic", and there is an excellent bluelink! Secondly, I'm confused by "the ground level is arcaded with six-pointed arches". I don't presently have access to Pevsner, but isn't it actually "six pointed arches, i.e. there are 6 of them, rather than they are six-pointed? The HE listing has "6 4-centred arches to Market Place".

Linked and excellent catch - my bizarre mistake on the arches

Vicarage - "beneath a large gable with timber oversails" - although they're both technical terms, I wonder of jetties might be the more commonly-understood of the two?

Good call - changed

Garden house at the Pines - would this be a useful bluelink?

Yes, I think so: done

Old Place - more of a query, but it relates to my Bluelinking comment above. This, the Vicarage and Carre's Hospital are the only redlinks. I'm wondering about the rationale. Is it that you think/intend these will get independent articles, but the others likely won't?

In short, I think there's enough for articles to be written about them. There's definitely enough written about Old Place and Carre's Hospital to justify GA-quality articles for them both, I just haven't got round to making them yet (both have recently had books written about them by local historians); I am less certain of the vicarage, but there is probably scope; if not, it could have an section in St Denys's article and be linked to that.

Old Place Cottages: 1-2 Boston Road - "coursed-stone" - is this, Course (architecture) not a suitable bluelink?

Yes, done

Old Place Cottages: 10-12 Boston Road - "shopfronts" - Façade would seem a suitable bluelink.

Done

Former office building in centre of yard formerly occupied by Hubbard and Phillips Ltd - cite 50 is giving me a "Fail to load" error on Wayback, although the original works.

Me too. I've manually generated a new archive link which is working for me.

Thanks so much @KJP1: I look forward to the remainder of your comments. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 10:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

[continuation]

1 Eastgate - "A one-storey building (with a gabled attic) in coarse rubble" - I think this is "coursed rubble".

Done

26 Jermyn Street - "There is datestone of 1793; it was owned by a tanner" - it needs a definite article and you could link tanner, thus "There is a datestone of 1793; it was owned by a tanner".

both done

1-6 Kingston Terrace - Marmaduke Bennison, great name, guy certainly warrants an article! But HE call his style 'Jacobean' (their single quote marks), so I wonder if Jacobethan would be a more appropriate link.

Changed

Garden wall to the rear of former stables to Westholme - I'm guessing from the dates that this is another work of Charles Kirk the Younger, and this should probably be specified.

The register doesn't say "the younger", but as the elder died in 1847 and the building is dated c. 1850, I have added the epithet

Redcroft - "The right and rear sides of the building have a bay windows" - the "a"'s not necessary.

Done

Bristol Arcade - worth linking "Marquess of Bristol"?

Done

Drinking fountain - another that I'd call Gothic Revival rather than Gothic.

Done

Lock-up in north-east corner of Churchyard - "which served as St Denys' Church's lock-up". While I appreciate that the lock-up is located in the churchyard, I'm not sure it can properly be described as the church's lock-up? As far as I'm aware, such Village lock-ups were administered by local judicial, magistrates etc., rather than ecclesiastical authorities. The source suggests it was operated by the "parish authorities", although it does say the vicar later bought it because he didn't like it! Presumably, he then closed it?

I've changed this to remove reference to the church and link to village lock-up; I think the HE list is less reliable about its past use than the local history work, so will use "town's lock-up".

Need to break off now, done as far as the lock-up. Will pick up later. KJP1 (talk) 11:14, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, I've made all the changes requested so far. I appreciate you taking the time to review this in such depth. —Noswall59 (talk) 11:37, 22 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

[continuation]

War memorial - "Major H. A. Peake" - this is one where we can only go with what the source says, and I can't access cite 135, but our article on Bawtry Hall, and some other sources, not all RS, [2][3], call him Major George Peake.

Short story: this is sorted now. Long story: the sources were not clear about what was going on here, so I had a deeper dig. I knew that the Peakes had lived at Westholme but left the town in the 1920s, so thought (when the source was vague) that it was Mrs H. A. Peake's husband Herbert Peake who was at Bawtry; having now tracked down the local paper, I have found that Herbert and his wife were still at Westholme and that it was his brother G. H. (George) Peake who was at Bawtry and who gave the address in Herbert's place when Mrs Herbert Peake unveiled the ceremony. According to Herbert Peake's obituary (he died in 1923), he was so devastated by the loss of his three sons that he retired from public life; this probably explains why George gave the address instead. A very sad story. And now disentangled -- an excellent spot on your part, and exactly why this process is so useful.

5 and 6 Market Street - "Nos 5 to 6 spans three storeys" - super picky but as it's two houses, should it be a plural "span"?

Done

7 Market Street - again, apologies for the pickiness but, for me, cite 144 is actually more of an explanatory Note rather than a Citation and would sit better in the Notes section.

Moved to note form

17 Market Place - "across three stories" - rather, "across three storeys".

Done, oops

Carre's Charity - another where I'd go for Gothic Revival, rather than Gothic.

Done

Lloyds Bank - "by Alvey Darwin" - I can't access the source but given he inherited it from William Alvey, are we certain his name is this way round, rather than Darwin Alvey? Your might also link armorial bearings.

No, his name was actually Alvey Darwin; he was a relative of the naturalist -- the source calls him "Alvey Darwin", but he was presumably the William Alvey Darwin (1726–1783) of New Sleaford in this tree, uncle of Charles, and son of Robert Darwin and his wife Elizabeth, daughter of John Hill of Sleaford and presumably through her somehow a relative of perhaps godson of William Alvey who built the house. (Also, I've linked armorial bearings)

Parry's Court (3/4/5 Northgate) - "The doorways are under Tudor arches" - given they aren't actually Tudor, perhaps "Tudor-style" or "Tudorbethan?

Done -- and corrected in one other place too.

27–29 and attached gateway to 25 - "with Doric columns" - if you haven't already, and you may have done, it's a long list!, I'd link Doric. Also, I'm not sure "their firm's successor's offices are still at 27 to 29 Northgate as of 2024", particularly "firm's successor's offices", quite flows. Perhaps, "As of 2024, their successors still operate from the building" or something similar?

Doric is already linked further up. I've changed the wording to the one you suggested.

23–27 Southgate - "pantile roof" - has pantile been linked before?

Yes, on its first usage.

White Hart Hotel - "The Hotel closed and has been an office since 2011" - lower case "h" for hotel.

Done

The Ivy - "it was renamed Beer and Bean", "the Beer and Bean", unless it self-consciously eschewed the definite article?

Done

Sleaford railway station - there's another "stories" that needs to be "storeys"

Done, oops again

Westgate House - "used as their birth, marriage and death register office", would "used as their births, marriages and deaths register office" be the more commons usage?

I've simplified to "used as their register office"

Notes

Note 5 - aside from wondering whether we really need this level of detail, and why it's a Note within a Note, i.e. Note 6, was it ECS (the company) that was bought by MRI or their Qube software product? But, either way, I'm not sure it's very relevant to the building.

I'd argue that the detail is okay for a footnote; it's a substantial, well-known house which has had some locally important owners, but it's also not had enough written about it yet to sustain its own article. I'd rather keep the ownership history here and a note keeps it uncluttered while giving interested parties the facts. Regarding the nested note, I've clarified the relationship between the companies. And I agree it's a bit silly, but I need to cite the fact that the company ECS (who bought the house in 1995) merged into Qube in 2007 and then bought in 2017 by MRI, who then left in 2021; clarifying the link between the companies requires an explanation.

Citations and Bibliography

These look good to me.

And that's it from me. A lovely list, and who knew Sleaford held such a rich haul of listeds. Certainly not me. You've responded very promptly to my issues to date, and I look forward to Supporting when you've had a chance to review the last batch. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 17:12, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much – I've gone through and addressed all of your concerns (other than the last point about notes 5 and 6). And, yes, most people even in the Midlands won't have heard of Sleaford, let alone been there. It's not much appreciated, even by a lot of the locals. Sure, it's got a lot of dull suburban housing, it's too congested at rush hour and its High Street shopping has got progressively down market (which town's hasn't?) But it has a quaint little centre and a great church, and on a sunny day the Ancaster stone and red-brick Georgian buildings make it quite pretty. Hopefully this will shine a little more light on all that. Glad you found it interesting. All the best, —Noswall59 (talk) 19:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Sincere apologies, yesterday RL was distracting, today Wiki was the same. All the issues I flagged, most of which were minor, have been promptly addressed. For me, the list meets the FL criteria and I am pleased to Support its promotion. KJP1 (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much -- I appreciate the time it takes to do these reviews. -- Noswall59 (talk) 19:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Promoting. --Pres N 01:12, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.