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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of teams and cyclists in the 2015 Tour de France/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by SchroCat 12:29, 28 September 2015 [1].

List of teams and cyclists in the 2015 Tour de France edit

List of teams and cyclists in the 2015 Tour de France (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Relentlessly (talk) 21:44, 28 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The 2015 Tour de France finished two days ago. This is a list that shows all the teams and the riders who participated. All the riders are shown first, including their placing in the general classification, and are then grouped by team and summarised by nation below.

This is my first attempt at preparing and nominating a featured list – I've never come near this page before. I've mostly followed another FL (List of teams and cyclists in the 2009 Giro d'Italia) as a guide, but it's fairly old so I don't know how much it reflects modern practice. Your advice and criticism is very much appreciated. Relentlessly (talk) 21:44, 28 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tables review - Relentlessly, the tables need "scope" formatting, as explained in MOS:DTT. Also, the table for "By nationality" has no referencing on it. — Maile (talk) 13:57, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Maile66 and many thanks for the review. I think I've added the scope as required in that page? I've also added some references to the lead section of that paragraph, but all the data in the table replicates content and references from above. Does this address your concerns?
A question, looking at that MOS page, is whether it should be using table summaries (for the "by rider" section) and table captions (for the "by team" section). Could you comment?
Many thanks again for your comments. Relentlessly (talk) 15:56, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, first of all, let me say that I should have given you more clear instructions. There is also scope=row to be done (and more tedious to do each row). I'm not exactly sure what you are asking me about the summaries/captions. But I think FL List of Tour de France general classification winners is a good example of what you are looking for. The cycling FL I find seem to have all been done in 2011. The individual tables aren't referenced as yours are, but in passing FL or FA, consistency is noticed. Consistency is referencing, also, so I'm satisfied with the references you added to the lead paragraph of "By nationality". — Maile (talk) 16:31, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again, Maile66. I was going by the footnote on that page that suggests only adding scope="row" to th elements. But I have updated the page with your suggested change (and that's what regex is for!). WRT summaries, I'm wondering whether doing this would be better than what I've done so far? Relentlessly (talk) 18:11, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I'm happy to give you the first Support on this nomination. As for your comment about that which might be better - I say, as long as you stay within the MOS and are consistent throughout, take the easiest route. Wikipedia always has several different ways of arriving at the same point. Good luck to you. — Maile (talk) 18:50, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think the "team" part of the title is superfluous since it is pretty obvious this is a list targeted towards cyclists. Also, I believe the final position entry should include the times. Nergaal (talk) 18:44, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it lists teams and then cyclists. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:59, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi Nergaal, thanks for commenting. I didn't create the article, and its name is consistent with other Grand Tour cycling lists. I think "teams" refers to two things: the list of teams at the top (relevant because each cycling race has a different selection of teams entered) and the listings of teams (the "by teams" section). As to the times, I can add them if you think it adds significant value to the article. The trouble is that there is endless data you can add – points, mountain points, other standings. It'll take a little while, but I think it's a reasonable thing to add: I'll get on and do it. Relentlessly (talk) 19:15, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More:

  • #61 is lacking the time
  • should DSQ-14 be listed above DNF-14?
  • listing riders by their jersey numbers kinda makes sense, but they are already listed in that order in the by team section. would the list look better if they were listed in order of classification?
  • the teams section is missing the nationalities
  • perhaps the likely rationale for wild cards would be useful since this is a "list of teams"
  • the "by x" sections should be merged into a "Cyclists" one, then the "by" part would make sense
  • intro should mention that x nationalities were represented, with France about 20% of the riders
  • isn't this the first time Eritrea was represented?
  • perhaps mention briefly the biggest absentees?
  • Quintana won two jerseys?

Nergaal (talk) 21:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for your additional comments, Nergaal. One by one:
  • Done, thanks.
  • Yes, that's how it appears in ProCyclingStats. He was disqualified during the stage.
  • I can see your point, though I'm not sure it makes much odds, as they are very easy to re-sort! It's a list of the riders, though, rather than a report of the general classification: it's more a start list than a finishing list.
  • The teams' nationalities? They are frequently irrelevant: teams do not represent their countries in any sense, and are often misleading. For example, BMC is registered as American but is based in Switzerland.
  • Added.
  • Agreed, done.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • I'm not sure who this would be or how it would be phrased without going into OR. Marcel Kittel is the most obvious absentee, perhaps along with Philippe Gilbert, but all the contenders for the overall classification were present. Very happy to think again if you think this is important.
  • Removed the duplicate.
Thanks for your thorough review. Relentlessly (talk) 12:23, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support you deleted Quintana's name though. Nergaal (talk) 16:23, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Harrias
;Tables review
  • In the table, use the template space version of the jerseys ({{cjersey|red number|Super-combativity award|White jersey with a red dossard}}, White jersey with a red dossard) rather than your userspace version. ({{User:Relentlessly/cjersey|red number|Super-combativity award|White jersey with a red dossard}}, White jersey with a red dossard).
  • You need to use the accessible dagger †, rather than the text symbol.
  • Why do DNS and DNF use bold ("Denotes a rider who did not start", "Denotes a rider who did not finish"), but DSQ doesn't ("Denotes a rider who was disqualified from the race")?
  • "Pos. Position in the general classification" Is listed in the key, but the table actually just uses "Position" as the header. Also, you need to explain what the numbers in parenthesis mean.
  • Make the "Ref" column unsortable, and use {{abbr|Ref|References}} to display Ref.
  • You should possibly use {{age|year1|month1|day1|year2|month2|day2}} to sort the age column correctly, so that older 38 year olds sort ahead of younger ones.
  • The "By team" tables also need to comply to MOS:DTT. Harrias talk 21:18, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your review, Harrias.
  • Done, silly me.
  • Done
  • No idea, sorted.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • Done, though I don't think this actually works as you suggest in terms of sorting...
  • Harrias Apparently {{nts}} should work like that as well, but it doesn't seem to. I've done something hackish with data-sort-value which seems to work – are you happy with that? Relentlessly (talk) 23:26, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What needs to happen per your last point? Table captions? Is there anything else they're missing? Many thanks again. Relentlessly (talk) 23:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just in terms of row and column scopes, as in the other tables. Harrias talk 10:16, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Will do these tomorrow. Relentlessly (talk) 23:26, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias, I've made the changes to the page. I think it now follows MOS:DTT: can you comment again? Thanks. Relentlessly (talk) 21:35, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, thanks for your work, nice list. Harrias talk 18:22, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Had the pleasure of witnessing the first two stages in Utrecht, was a fantastic race!

  • "All seventeen UCI WorldTeams were automatically invited and were obliged to attend the race."
  • "France provided the the largest number (41 riders)." sentence needs revising
  • "38 of the riders failed to finish the race, so 160 riders completed the final stage in Paris." I would flip this sentence around, so it states the number that finished first. I feel it will read better as a result
  • "who had also won the race in 2013." -> who won the 2013 Tour.
  • I'm not sure why you use data-sort-value="Nibali, Vincenzo" when we have the {{sortname}} template for that?
  • Should the time be presented as it is in List of Tour de France general classification winners, with apostrophes?
  • No need for the by team tables to be less than 100% font size
  • they also need rowscopes per MOS:DTT
  • Should be no capitals in references, regardless of how they are presented on the web page
  • This page is very long at 142,000 bytes, one solution would be to use this page as a general reference and then cite those riders who didn't finish the Tour in the table. Would help with loading times on the page, as it lags a bit for me

NapHit (talk) 19:13, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I'm on holiday and unable to deal with these substantially fit the next two weeks. (I never expected this would take so long...) A couple of points: I'm using data-sort-value because it's recommended on {{hs}}, which was used previously. I programmatically converted it using the DEFAULTSORT value for each page for consistency. I added row scope, but it was removed by another user who I presumed knew more about table formatting. The rest I can't respond to until 20 September, unfortunately... Relentlessly (talk) 23:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The other thing that occurs to me, NapHit, is that the individual citations also support the riders' ages. I don't see how they can be removed. Relentlessly (talk) 12:54, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
True, although you could add a note saying to verify a rider's age you can click on the link to their name in the classifications ref? Also make sure the dashes in the refs are en dashes and not normal dashes, I noticed a lot are the latter. NapHit (talk) 19:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The riders ages and withdrawals can be taken from the team pages (under the "THE RIDERS" tab). BaldBoris 18:01, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good suggestion, BaldBoris, and I've done it for the rider details, though I've kept the withdrawal citations because they frequently add useful information and 56 citations is perfectly reasonable. Relentlessly (talk) 19:08, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Right, NapHit, I'm back. Your comments 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8 & 9 are fixed. I'm reluctant to use {{sortname}} because it would have no visible or technical effect. The times could be presented as in List of Tour de France general classification winners, but that would contravene MOS:UNIT. I realise that cycling articles (including mine) have in the past used the apostrophe format; I'm very happy to go to that if you think it's better. Finally, I disagree with your suggestion for indirect referencing because, so far as I can tell, it is not supported by Wikipedia's policies on referencing. I appreciate and look forward to your response! Relentlessly (talk) 16:14, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've used {{sortname}} for 2012, and it works fine. Some other things I've done differently is put the jerseys on the right side of the rider and the team ones next to the riders, both of which I think look tidier in terms of alignment, and put the team code in parentheses. There are other small things, but nothing major. BaldBoris 11:42, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, BaldBoris. I will indeed use {{sortname}} in future, but it seems pointless to go to the work of changing it here, since the effect would be precisely nil! With your other changes, I agree and, for the sake of consistency I'll change this page over later on today. I'm very happy to do minor tweaks here as well, so as to get a perfect template for future lists, if you have any... Relentlessly (talk) 12:04, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've done some minor fixes to the tables, but there's some others that I think need doing in "By starting number"; center align No. and link DNF/DNS for consistancy with "By teams". BaldBoris 18:05, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the withdrawals all need to either be in italics or not, including the legend (as with the 2009 Giro). I'm not too sure what the need for the italics is though? I'd say uninitialised. "By teams" should have the "Rider" header. Is "hr" in the times just your preference? Because I've never seen it elsewhere (apart from the articles you've done). In this case especially, I think it clogs up an already congested space. Lastly, I do understand why "Stage wins" doesn't have a total, but for some reason it just looks odd without. BaldBoris 10:51, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
BaldBoris, thanks for your detailed comments. I have centred No. and linked DNF/DNS/DSQ. I have deitalicised it (I presume that's what you mean, not uninitialised). I have indeed used "hr" everywhere, because I thought it was normal in English, though I have since noticed the difference from most of Wikipedia. Neither style is recommended in MOS:UNIT, by the way. I'll change it if you think it's important. To reduce the congestion I have separated time out into a separate column. Finally, I have added the total to the table of stage wins and a note to explain why it's only 20. (This confusion was why I didn't include it before.) Any thoughts on these changes? Relentlessly (talk) 14:04, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think that all cycling articles should use the same style. Especially in this case, to match that used in 2015 Tour de France. Position can now be now be changed to Pos., to reduce space, and I think the empty cell should em dash (like GT GC timelines). BaldBoris 14:57, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
All done, BaldBoris. Relentlessly (talk) 15:23, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment: Is there a reason for the extensive legend which then does not get used? Thisisnotatest (talk) 06:21, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overall I'm happy enough to support this one. I'm not 100% sure that the jersey icons are ideal given that some are different only by colour, but to me I would suppose the mouse-over text alleviates this, so it's not objection-worthy. GRAPPLE X 09:31, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support looks like my comments have been addressed and the list has really improved as a result. Great work. NapHit (talk) 11:10, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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