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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of football clubs in England by major honours won/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured list candidates‎ | List of football clubs in England by major honours won
The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted 19:52, 3 April 2008.

List of football clubs in England by major honours won

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This list has gone through a peer review following which I feel the list meets the criteria for listed status. Peanut4 (talk) 02:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments good, I participated at the PR, a couple of comments before I can support the FLC.
    • "with Manchester United winning most FA Cups with the 2004 title being their 11th" two withs makes awkward reading here.
      • Re-written. Hopefully it's better. Peanut4 (talk) 15:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The three sentences that discuss the formation of the European cups read a little choppy, could you improve the flow of the prose there?
      • Re-written a little. Again hope it's better. Peanut4 (talk) 15:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Any reason why the UEFA Super Cup isn't included?
    • Can you make those red links go blue? (Always worth asking this, it helps expand the encyclopaedia, even if you create stubs...)
    • Use the {{Cite web}} template for the External links.
  • That's about it though, very well referenced, nice one. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I understand the Cardiff comment in the Lead, but I'm not sure everyone else would, as it's not explicit that you've included them despite them not being "in England". --Dweller (talk) 14:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Added description that they are Welsh. Not sure what you otherwise mean. Peanut4 (talk) 15:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment to avoid the current hint of NPOV, you need a source that defines "major honours". --Dweller (talk) 14:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Indeed. I completely chanced upon this article when it was in its infancy and carried on editing away at it. I simply took over with the current trophies as listed. I will do my best to find some sources.
    • Obviously of those trophies open to essentially every club in the country, it doesn't include Charity Shield, European Super Cup and any World Club Cup / World Club Championship. And also the defunct Simod Cup. Any suggestions would be most welcome. Peanut4 (talk) 15:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, I'd agree with your choices, but I'm sure someone else might not, so there is a problem. Ideally, you want a reliable football source that defines the term "major trophy". I'll have a look if I have a mo'. --Dweller (talk) 15:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've found this source. What do you think? It backs up the selection, which is probably one reason why I like it (!) though the selection was already there when I took over anyway and I agree with them. Peanut4 (talk) 15:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • I think that'll do the job admirably. --Dweller (talk) 16:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved stuff from NapHit
  • Comment
  • Just out of interest why is the Cup Winners' Cup referred to as the European Cup Winners' Cup and not UEFA Cup Winners' Cup?
    • I've changed the key. But left the text as is, because that's the name it was founded with. Peanut4 (talk) 21:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "when it founded the League Cup invitiation to which is restricted to the 92 members of the league." reads abit uneasily I would reword it slightly. Also invitation is spelt incorrectly
    • Indeed. I've added a couple of commas. Peanut4 (talk) 21:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "League football followed the following decade" reads a little uneasily I would change it to "League football followed in the subsequent decade"
Overall, it's a cracking list, just a few minor issues to address NapHit (talk) 20:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support My minor issues have been dealt with. Great work NapHit (talk) 22:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Isn't "major honours" a little WP:POV?
    • See above discussion. I've added a source for "major honours" but I do realise your concern. Peanut4 (talk) 01:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not a football buff, but isn't there a Milk Cup? And what's that one match that happens before the season starts, between the winner of one cup and the winner of the other? (Or something like that)
    • The Milk Cup is the League Cup. You're otherwise on about the Charity Shield, which isn't counted in the source above. Peanut4 (talk) 01:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the key should be moved to before the table so readers know what they're looking at.
    • I'd say most keys come after tables themselves. Peanut4 (talk) 01:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Are you sure? Otherwise the reader is wondering what all those initials mean, and then figure out that the key is at the bottom, read through it, scroll back to the top of the list, try to remember the key, then read the list again. And I know it's not football, but the hockey lists that have been featured have the key first IIRC. -- Matthew | talk | Contribs 06:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I simply followed previous football lists which have the key at the bottom. I can change it if there is a huge demand for it. Peanut4 (talk) 11:14, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a template table for the bottom of the page?
    • Don't think so. I can't think of anything appropriate to add. Peanut4 (talk) 01:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's it. -- Matthew | talk | Contribs 01:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I participated at the peer review. One or two more bits.

  • Lead. Not sure "League football followed the subsequent decade" works, maybe in the subsequent decade.
  • "It remained the highest division..." what did?
  • Key. With all the abbreviations in the headings, it might be better to have the key at the top as well. I've taken the liberty of adding one in, please have a look and see if you think it works, and please revert or change the format if you don't like it.

That's all I can think of, cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further comment Please would you explain why you've removed the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup from the table. Perhaps this has been discussed somewhere, but I haven't seen it.

It's not entirely accurate to say it's not "recognised" by UEFA. It never was a UEFA competition; they took over the running of it in 1971, so it's not surprising that they don't consider it as part of clubs' European record, which they presumably define as "record in our competitions". In your reference #14, they do list the results of all the ICFC finals, so they recognise that when people look up all-time UEFA Cup finals, they'll expect to find the Fairs Cup ones as well. Their UEFA Cup history page devotes the first three paragraphs (of seven) to it, and says In 1968 Leeds United AFC became the first northern European club to win the trophy, heralding a run of six successive wins by English clubs. The fifth of these was in 1971/72, won by Tottenham Hotspur FC, and the first to be known as the UEFA Cup. The change of name was recognition of the fact the competition was now run by UEFA. I don't see any evidence there of the ICFC being any less "major" a trophy than its successor. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I decided to remove the Fairs Cup after asking TRM and Dweller, prompted by the UEFA Cup page. However, I think your query backs up my worries that the title, particularly the word major, is misleading. My only concern is once you take out major, you're left having to add every trophy, including Football League Group Cup, Texaco Cup, Anglo-Italian, etc. I think this list needs a bit more work / thinking about to be honest. Peanut4 (talk) 20:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - not wishing to be too controversial but there appears to be a miniature witch-hunt going on for vaguely ambiguous list titles (see the List of Arsenal F.C. players delist debate going on) - while there may be a generally agreed WP:FOOTBALL version of "major honours", it won't stop a non-WP:FOOTBALLer popping up to tell you it doesn't cut the mustard (although probably not in such an Imperialist tone!). I'd think long and hard over the title of this if you wish it to succeed. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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