Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of cities in Israel/Archive2
List of cities in Israel edit
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this page. The closing editor's comments were: 12 days, 1 support, 3 oppose. Fail. Scorpion0422 21:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As I said in the previous nomination, several editors have put a lot of work into this entry, as have I, and I looked to List of United States cities by population as a rough template. Having reached the same level of quality as that list, it seems logical to me that this too qualifies for FL status. The issues remaining at the last discussion were relatively minor, including a source that couldn't be located, but I think that that has now been addressed. Let us know, TewfikTalk 09:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The list looks good to me, but it does include three cities (Ariel, Beitar Illit and Ma'ale Adummim) which are Israeli settlements and therefore not "in Israel". Either they should be deleted from the list, or a note about their status inserted somewhere into the article. Number 57 13:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- They are listed as being in Judea and Samaria Area, where detailed discussion of their status can be found, though I can add a note if people think that that is necessary. TewfikTalk 23:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think a footnote at the very least is needed to point out the disputed nature of these areas. However, since this is an official list of cities from the Israeli government, they should of course be included in the table. I also stand by my previous statement that the 2004 figures aren't needed in the main list. Furthermore, it's a bit odd to keep switching between censuses; the main table has 2004 and 2006 figures, the next two use 2000 and 2005, and then it jumps back to (presumably) 2006; however, the population figure for the 'large immigrant population' table is undated, and it really needs to be, considering how the dates hop around. --Golbez 01:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The reason that those years are used is that specific analyses have been published for those years, and not necessarily for others. While it may theoretically be possible to produce similar analysis for the most current census, that would no longer rely on published information, but on independent analyses of published numbers. I'm not sure that I personally have sufficient resources to carry out such a project, and so while I appreciate the discomfort caused by the status quo, I'm not sure what to do about it - perhaps someone could offer a suggestion. As far as the 2004 figures, while I personally support them for a number of reasons (illustrate population fluctuation etc.), if there is a consensus to remove them, that would of course be fine. That said, some of the opposes on the previous discussion stemmed from disagreement among the reviewers, and so I reiterate that I am willing to be quite flexible here, but that some agreement amongst the uninvolved reviewers on what course to take needs to happen as well. Cheers, TewfikTalk 06:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think a footnote at the very least is needed to point out the disputed nature of these areas. However, since this is an official list of cities from the Israeli government, they should of course be included in the table. I also stand by my previous statement that the 2004 figures aren't needed in the main list. Furthermore, it's a bit odd to keep switching between censuses; the main table has 2004 and 2006 figures, the next two use 2000 and 2005, and then it jumps back to (presumably) 2006; however, the population figure for the 'large immigrant population' table is undated, and it really needs to be, considering how the dates hop around. --Golbez 01:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- They are listed as being in Judea and Samaria Area, where detailed discussion of their status can be found, though I can add a note if people think that that is necessary. TewfikTalk 23:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose Looks good, but a few important quibbles about sourcing and focus.
- Some non-statiscal statements need sources or explicitation:
- Does the Israel CBS actually define or release stats for urban agglomerations, urban area or metropolitan area ? If not, I don't think it is necessary to discuss it. It's not mentionned in other similar lists,and I think it's a given the population is taken to be that within the city limits.
- This is actually based very closely on phrasing in the similar featured List of United States cities by population, while the Tel Aviv metropolitan area is indeed an officially recognised entity. Ultimately I defer to your judgement though, TewfikTalk 06:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "Because they identify with their central city as the economic, cultural and oftentimes political center of the urban area, many definitions (and people's perceptions) of cities include the entire metropolitan region, as in Ben Gurion International Airport being referred to as Tel Aviv Airport even though it is actually closer to Lod and Yehud-Monosson."
- A nice analysis, but it needs a source.
- "Tel Aviv, which is considered to be approaching global city status." Weasel words: by who?
- I've added a reference for that one, but someone will need to format it - I'm rubbish with reference and citation formats. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 12:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Number 57 12:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Global city is a technical term defined by a specific academic institution, as outlined on that entry. I think that if you take a look at it it will become self-evident why there wasn't a reference, though I suppose it doesn't hurt. TewfikTalk 06:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Number 57 12:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a reference for that one, but someone will need to format it - I'm rubbish with reference and citation formats. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 12:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Does the Israel CBS actually define or release stats for urban agglomerations, urban area or metropolitan area ? If not, I don't think it is necessary to discuss it. It's not mentionned in other similar lists,and I think it's a given the population is taken to be that within the city limits.
- Since the list is not primarily preoccupied with population, I'm thinking that the "fastest growing", "declining" and "immigrant population" sections ought to be moved in Demographics of Israel, and a link to it added in "See also".
- Some non-statiscal statements need sources or explicitation:
- Circeus 17:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- As I mentioned above, this is one of the issues that the reviewers need to establish a consensus on - I'm open to either direction. 06:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- At least two of the "cities" listed in the "fasting growing" table are settlements also. While I agree that all settlements listed by the CBS should be included in the list, it must be clearly indicated which are in fact settlements. Tiamat 16:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. The status of Ariel, Beitar Illit and Ma'ale Adummim as being "in Israel" is so controversial that I'm very nearly inclined to say that I'll oppose this list outright without it being renamed. I would be much happier, for example, with List of Israeli cities, which says what rather than where these cities are. At the absolute minimum, the issue of their status needs to be explicitly addressed, and in more than just a footnote - I'd like to see a paragraph in the introduction. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 16:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose per OpenToppedBus. IP198 02:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]