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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of San Francisco Giants managers/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Scorpion0422 23:26, 28 April 2009 [1].

List of San Francisco Giants managers

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Nominator(s): Rlendog (talk)
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I am nominating this for featured list because I think it meets all the criteria Adam Penale (talk) 00:16, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Extremely Strong Oppose Please never nominate something you didn't significantly contribute to without consulting the principal contributor(s). On WP:FLC, it reads "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the list should consult regular editors of the list before nomination." -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]]call me Keith 00:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Truco
  • Oppose for now -- Please consult User:Rlendog if he gives you permission to nominate this. If not, you don't have the right to nominate something you didn't work on, as stated on the FLC instructions.--Truco 00:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comments
  • 'Since starting play as the New York Gothams in 1883, the Giants have employed 36 different managers.' -- 'Since starting place' really doesn't sound right, how about Since their inception as the New York Gothams in 1883 (or replace inception with any other similar word)
  • 'The Giants won two World Series championships during the 19th century, in 1888 and 1889, with Jim Mutrie as their manager in both years' -- 1)No links? = To World Series 1888 World Series? 2)No need for the 'in' before 'both years.'
  • 'While managing the Giants, the team won the National League championship 10 times—in 1904, 1905, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1921, 1922, 1923 and 1924—and played in the World Series championship nine times (no World Series was played in 1904) and won three, in 1905, 1921 and 1922.' -- Consider splitting after 'and played in' because the sentence just runs-on, in addition, delink World Series here if you link it earlier where I suggested.
  • 'The Giants moved from New York to San Francisco in 1958 with Bill Rigney as their manager.' -- Comma before 'with'
  • 'The current Giants manager, Bruce Bochy, has been managing the team since 2006.' --> The current Giants manager, Bruce Bochy, has managed the team since 2006.
  • 'Heinie Smith has the lowest winning percentage of any Giants manager, with .156.' [no need to repeat it in consecutive sentences]
  • 'The lowest winning percentage of any Giants manager who managed at least 100 games is .389, by Jim Davenport in 1985' - Why is this needed? In addition, how many games were for the other ones mentioned earlier?
List
  • Is the 'Managers with multiple tenures' really needed? Its obvious by the fact that they are mentioned more than once in the tables, its not common for these to be like this and instead have a footnote explaining that they are mentioned more than once for multiple tenures.--Truco 00:43, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your comments. I addressed most of them. I left in the Jim Davenport sentence, but added a phrase to the sentence on Heinie Smith to note that his record was achieved in just 32 games. The reason for including Davenport is because, since Smith had so few games managed, some may consider the record trivial. In the extreme, a team may have had an interim manager who lost the only game he managed. He would have the lowest winning percentage in team history (or vice versa if he won the game as interim manager), but it's a pretty trivial situation. Admittedly, 32 games is a lot more than one or two, but it is still a pretty small sample, and it is worth noting the manager with the lowest winning percentage over a more substantial sample. I could remove the Davenport comment if it is really problematic though.
As for the "Managers with multiple tenures", I think that is necessary, and it is disappointing that this information is missing from many (but not all) similar lists. Someone coming to this article should be able to find out that Bill Rigney won 406 games with the Giants, or that John Montgomery Ward had a .583 winning percentage without having to do the math himself. This is an even mroe critical issue for the other manager list I have been working on, the Yankees, with managers like Billy Martin having 5 tenures over which to add up his record. Rlendog (talk) 02:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have asked Rlendog whether the list was ready and he wanted it to be nominated. Let's keep this FLC open until he replies. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am okay with this going forward. I think it is in good shape and I am not sure what additional improvements are needed and would be interested in the feedback and getting this up to FL. Thanks. Rlendog (talk) 14:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Since we have Rlendog's consent to move forward with the nom, I'll post my comments when I get home from work this afternoon (they are waiting on a WordPad document on my computer's desktop). KV5 (Talk • Phils) 14:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from KV5
Comments from KV5
  • Recent consensus has been to unlink years in prose, even if they are going to seasons. The only ones we have been linking are World Series.
  • "McGraw's successor, Hall of Famer Bill Terry who manged the team from the middle of the 1932 season until 1941, also was a successful manger." - managed/manager, plus this is a horrible run-on, re-word
  • "3rd most" - third
  • "Durocher was the manager for the Giants most recent World Series championship 1954." - Giants', and in 1954
  • "In their first 28 years in San Francisco through the 1985 season" - stunted, re-word
  • "Since 1985" - add comma
  • "His successor, Dusty Baker" - add comma
  • "ten years, from 1993" - remove comma
  • "2nd highest" - second
  • Reference column is monstrously wide. Take a look at List of Baltimore Orioles managers.
  • Lots of edit bunching.
  • Suggest superscripting the daggers.
  • Should have two columns in references, which will necessitate removing the picture from that section.
  • Main team navbox doesn't link directly to this article.
  • Numbers over 999 should have commas in the lead, I believe.
  • World Series overlinked.
  • "and won three times"
  • Link "winning percentage" on first appearance.
  • Spell-check:
  • "50 consectutive years"
  • "McGraw hiimself"

Hope this helps. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 21:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments. I believe I have addressed them all. The one I wasn't sure about was the "two colums in references". I wasn't sure what that meant. If I have not addressed it, please let me know what I need to do. Rlendog (talk) 18:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, should have been clearer. Change the {{reflist}} to {{reflist|2}} so that the reference list is in two columns instead of one. I will return to check the rest of my comments tomorrow afternoon, as I have a gig this evening and work tomorrow morning. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:53, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added the "

Cheers. I support. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 19:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Criterion 1, per everything KV pointed out above. Four typos in a lead is simply unacceptable in any article, never mind an FL. Add in the many MoS glitches already mentioned and there is serious work to be done. To offer an original comment, does the lead really need to be six paragraphs long? In particular, most of the second paragraph has little to do with the Giants or their managers. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I have fixed the typos and any MoS issues. I think the second paragraph is necessary. The first two sentences address the early Giants' managers. The other two paragraphs don't sepcifically address a Giants' manager, but I think they are necessary to explain the fact that I am sure many will find surprising that Jim Mutrie managed the Giants to two World Series titles before 1900. Rlendog (talk) 18:13, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I did eliminate one paragraph by combining the last short paragraph with the previous one. Rlendog (talk) 18:22, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) If you find it necessary, perhaps have the information as a footnote, like how it's handled in the table. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the suggestion. I did that. Rlendog (talk) 21:22, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
  • No mention of what division they're in?
  • "by far the longest"
  • "He managed the Giants to the National League championship 10 times, in 1904, 1905, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1921, 1922, 1923 and 1924. McGraw's Giants played in the World Series championship nine times (no World Series was played in 1904) and won three, in 1905, 1921 and 1922." I don't like the phrasing of "manag[ing]" a team to the championship. Perhaps "While manager of the Giants, the team [won/appeared in] the National League championship ten times—in 1904, 1905, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1921, 1922, 1923 and 1924—and played in the World Series championship nine times (no World Series was played in 1904), winning three: in 1905, 1921 and 1922."
  • "1981-1984" Should be an en dash.
  • I think the note about stats being accurate through so-and-so season should be above the table, not below.
  • "prior to"-->before Dabomb87 (talk) 22:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008
Oppose - After the rapid turnaround in the fortunes of this FLC, I'm disappointed to find a couple of basic MoS errors and sourcing queries. I should have read this closer before dropping my original oppose, but hopefully this will only be temporary.
  • First big thing I see is that all numbers of more than 1,000 should have commas in the appropriate pace, excluding years. This covers the table and lead photo.
  • Remove "different" from the second sentence, as it only makes the sentence wordier.
  • The cite for managers' roles doesn't mention team strategy. I also think we could do better than a straight dictionary reference.
  • Actually, the American Heritage definition (which is not the first) does mention that the manager is not just "a person who manages". I recognized this because this was taken verbatim from List of Philadelphia Phillies managers and the other manager lists that I worked on, including the reference. The word "strategy" is never directly used, but it is certainly implied. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:43, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "John McGraw became the Giants manager...". Apostrophe for Giants.
  • "beginning a streak of more than 50 consecutive years in which the Giants were managed by a Baseball Hall of Famer." A more specific number would be better.
  • Source needed for the 1904 World Series not being played. Should be easy enough to find one and stick it after the parentheses.
  • "including a National League championship in 2002." Change "including" since it doesn't work well there. Try "winning" or something similar that avoids repetition.
  • Several columns in the Managers with multiple tenures table don't need to be sortable, as they are nothing but dashes. Also remove sorting from the Ref column in the general managers table.
  • The addition of general managers feels like an afterthought. The only information about them in the prose is the number and definition. At least tell us who the first and current GMs are. If a five-paragraph lead is needed to fit it in, so be it. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Struck the oppose above, and left inline notes. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:11, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the additional comments. I addressed the items I missed earlier. Rlendog (talk) 02:05, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Nice work addressing the points brought up during this review. Looks much better, and ready for FL status. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:20, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Is there any kind of official San Francisco Giants source that you would be able to include (not that one is necessary, but it would be nice to have one in there). -- Scorpion0422 15:04, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reference for the general managers was already from the Giants' official page, but I now added a link to the manager list on the Giants' official page as a general reference.Rlendog (talk) 17:20, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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