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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Pittsburgh Penguins head coaches

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 06:56, 3 March 2009 [1].

List of Pittsburgh Penguins head coaches

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Nominator(s): blackngold29
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My third and final nomination of head coaches in Pittsburgh sports. I will address any issues to the best of my abilities. Thank you! blackngold29 20:42, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Not sure that I like this new format. Where is the playoff win percentage column? Dabomb87 (talk) 22:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done blackngold29 20:09, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Truco

Weak OpposeComments from Truco (talk · contribs) -- Mainly due to the table formatting.

Lead
  • Established as one of six new franchises of the 1967 NHL expansion, the Penguins are members of the Eastern Conference's Atlantic Division. -- The two clauses do not connect, as the first one implies. Split or reword.
    • Reworded
  • The franchise is co-owned by Ronald Burkle and Mario Lemieux—the only player/owner in the modern era. -- modern era of what?
    • Clarified
  • Eddie Johnston—who along with Patrick and Ken Schinkel served two tenures as head coach—leads Penguins' coaches in games coached (516), wins (232), losses (224), and ties (60). -- Link to Eddie Johnston and Patrick Schinkel?
    • Linked Johnston and Ken Schinkel. Patrick refers to Craig Patrick who is linked above.
  • Scotty Bowman leads coaches in winning percentage (.628) and playoff victories (33). -- Since Bowman is noted beforehand, just mention him by his last name.
    • Done
  • Bob Johnson led the Penguins to its first Stanley Cup victory in 1991, but was forced to retire due to health problems—he died later that year. -- (1)It should be stated whether his retirement was also in 1991 because the wording doesn't imply that. (2)Johnson is mentioned beforehand, only mention him by his last name.
    • Done
  • Hired during the 2008–09 season,[9] current head coach Dan Bylsma took over for Michel Therrien who won the Prince of Wales Trophy, as Eastern Conference champion, during the 2007–08 season. -- The many commas makes the statement confusing, its best to split these two sentences.
    • Split
Key
  • Each column can be sorted to the viewer's preference. Due to this feature head coaches with multiple terms are counted once, and are presented along with their total career figures. For a specific order of the coaches see the Footnotes section. -- This should be made into a footnote, not located above the key.
    • What column should the footnote go on? It applies to all of them.
      • Well (1)Remove the first sentence, its obvious that it can be sorted since the sortability keys are available. (2)The footnote should go either on the years column or on the name of the coach's column.--TRUCO 23:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done
  • The key needs to be revamped if my comment below is consulted.
Coaches
  • I don't really like this format either, the sortability does not function as a result of this new formatting, most likely due to the integration of the Season in progress, see 2008–09 Pittsburgh Penguins season for details. row. These tables are best as unsortable, and in smaller sizes, like it is List of Washington Capitals head coaches#Here. In addition, the column headings don't really match the proper wording, like in the FL I mentioned.
    • I understand that the format is different than others, but I don't think that it prevents the list from meeting the FL criteria. Yes, the "Season in progress" thing messes it up, the recent coaching change kind of screwed that over. I can change it back to blank columns until the end of the season if you want. blackngold29 04:52, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, that would look unappealing. These types of table are not meant to be sortable. That's why the previous format is preferred. Another thing to point out is that the Years column is redundant to have sortable since some coaches had more than 1 term and the sortability function isn't representative of that.--TRUCO 23:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Why are they not meant to be sortable? From the comments below and at WP:HOCKEY, it would seem that the sortability option is preferred; I personally prefer it, that's why I made it that way. Just because it's different doesn't mean it doesn't meet the FL criteria. blackngold29 00:42, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Due to the sortability mishap. Something has to be done about that. It can't just be left like that. In addition, did you remove the sortability function of the Years column?--TRUCO 00:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • I removed the years sortability. The other columns now sort properly; if yours does not they I would guess you have Firefox. The same thing happend with the Pirates coaches list. I've heard no word on if there is a way to fix it yet. Anyone? blackngold29 00:59, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • I cleared my cache and some sort now, but others dont, mostly the last 3-5 columns.--TRUCO 01:36, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                • Hmmm, true. Why can't we go back to this style until the end of the year? Or we could actually just update the figures now and have the footnote ("Through Feb. 22"). Just as a one-time special case. blackngold29 17:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see a problem with that format except that you need to make the # column sortable and make fixes to the table presented above like making the Years column unsortable.--TRUCO 03:19, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reformatted with all FL review changes incorporated, how's that?--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackngold29 (talk • contribs)
      • I would add Season in progress, see 2008–09 Pittsburgh Penguins season for details. as a footnote to the 2009 entry.--TRUCO 03:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Did you see the one I put there? Dan Blysma's statistics will be updated upon the completion of the 2008–09 season. Is that alright? blackngold29 03:41, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Now I did.--TRUCO 03:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Footnotes
  • Note B:
    • Gene Ubriaco served as the Penguins head coach to begin the 1989–90 season, the team began with a 10–14–2 record. -- The comma should be a semi-colon.
      • Done
    • Under Patrick the team went 22–26–6 and did not qualify for the playoffs. -- Comma after Patrick.
      • Done
  • Note C: Coach Eddie Johnston was replaced by Craig Patrick who finished the season 7–10–3 and lost in the first round of the playoffs four games to one. -- Comma after Patrick
    • Done
Images
  • Scotty Bowman — 2006 -- this doesn't really say much, reword to something like "2006 Penguins head coach Scotty Bowman"
    • Same thing with Michel Therrien — 2008--TRUCO 22:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Reworded The year is the year the picture was taken (not when they were coach).
  • Support -- Previous issues resolved to meet WP:WIAFL standards.--TRUCO 03:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from SRE.K.A.L.24

Comments from -- SRE.K.A.L.24[c]

  • A lot of hate for this aritcle's format...anyways...
    • See above comment to Truco
  • Currently I need consistency with the colors and the table format. That is because I want more consistency right now for the topic. If you want the format to change into something else with the sortable function, then please talk to WT:HOCKEY. I will support this format if you do, but I'm currently busy at the moment.
    • I don't care about the color, I just felt that the blue meant more to the team than pink; that can easily be changed. As for the format and the FT: Does the format on every list have to match? I would think that as long as all of the lists are FLs it shouldn't be a big deal. blackngold29 04:52, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think it does say something about consistency on WP:WIAFT. Anyways, just ask WT:HOCKEY about the consistency problem, and it'll be fine. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 04:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • From my POV, anything that improves on our current standards is a good change. Certainly most of the other coaching FLs are not sortable at this point, but really, when I look at this list vs. List of Calgary Flames coaches, I really see only two real differences, neither of which I consider major: this list is sortable, where the Flames one is not (and that would be easy to change), and this list uses a reference for each coach, while thanks to the Flames media guide, I was able to get away with a single general reference. Trivial differences in my book. I wouldnt oppose based on slight differences from other lists If list A is FL calibre, and this list is FL calibre, I'd say support it now, and we can decide which format we wish to use after. Resolute 05:17, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So could you or Blackngold29 notify WT:HOCKEY about this, just since I believe that notifying the WikiProject is mandatory. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 05:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
WP:HOCKEY coversation can be found here. I understand your POV SK and I'll do everything I can to help you get the FT, but if they refuse to allow a topic to be approved because all are FLs but a few are sortable and a few aren't that seems ridiculous. As Resolute said, the differences aren't major, so it really comes down to personal preference (which one is better could be debated forever) so I think we should first try to get all the teams to FLs and then see what the FT reviewers think. blackngold29 18:03, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck with the FLC, and there will be more comments from me soon. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 23:35, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • On the list, the column "Managers"....managers? these are head coaches. (you probably copied List of Pittsburgh Pirates managers)
    • Yep, fixed
  • The notes don't work.
    • Done
  • More to come...

-- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 20:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • To be consistent...
    • List --> Coaches
    • Coach --> Name
    • Years --> Term
    • Games --> GC (your choice)
    • WPct --> Win% (your choice)
    • Achievements doesn't have to be aligned center.
      • Done "Games" is probably as descriptive as GC so I left that one.
  • In the Pittsburgh Penguins navbox, it should be "Head coaches", not "Coaches".
    • Done

-- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:20, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Do you really need to say former? aren't all the head coaches (besides Bylsma) "former"? I believe it's more nicer mentioning how many years the coach coached.
    • Done
      • Also, on the image captions, "–" --> "to".
        • Done
  • champion --> champions? I really don't know...
    • I don't really know either, I figured something like "The coach (singular) was a champion, the Penguins (plural) were the champions"
      • On the Achievements, it should be "championship" because it is an achievement. Truco mentioned about this on one of my FLCs. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 05:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oh, right. I don't know how I missed that.--TRUCO 12:31, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Done
  • 2007–08 season could be wikilinked.
    • Done
  • Why not link the years on the table? You could, but needs to include a note (ie. List of Los Angeles Kings head coaches)
    • Eh, they're done by year and not season (i.e. 2005 could be during the 2004–05 or 2005–06 season) I never really felt the links added a whole lot.
  • Elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame († denotes induction as a builder) --> Elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame († denotes induction as a player). This is because the article is about the head coaches, and should be mentioned first.
  • Again, Achievements doesn't have to be aligned center.
    • I like them centered.
  • Stats are as of...?
    • Note added, obviously I'll update after the season.
      • -->"through the end of Michel Therrien's term as head coach." --> "as of February 15, 2009". Some readers don't know when was the end of Michel Therrien's term as head coach. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 05:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done

-- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 02:21, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support with one comment; switch the last and second last sentences, as the current head coach sentences are usually last. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 23:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008
Comments -
  • A citation would be useful for the Penguins coming into the league as part of the 1967 expansion.
    • Done
  • "Since its founding, the Penguins have played their games...". Tense problem here; this refers to the Penguins (plural) as "their" (plural) and "its" (singular).
    • Done
  • "The franchise's first head coach was former New York Rangers' captain and head coach Red Sullivan." I don't think Rangers needs an apostrophe.
    • Done
  • "Sullivan. Sullivan...". Change the second to avoid repetition. Same with "Kelly. Kelly..."
    • Done
  • Another tense issue: "Johnson led the Penguins to its first Stanley Cup victory in 1991".
    • Done
  • Consider shortening the last column to Ref. That would get rid of some white space.
    • Done

Also would like to see a playoff win percentage column, as it would be a nice touch. Giants2008 (17-14) 19:16, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done Thanks! blackngold29 20:07, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The changes all look good. One more thing from note e: "Coach Eddie Johnson was replaced by Craig Patrick, who finished the season 7–10–3 and lost in the first round of the playoffs four games to one." Technically, the team did those things, not the head coach. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:29, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. blackngold29 16:26, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Meets the standards after the fixes above and below. Good work. Giants2008 (17-14) 16:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:26, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
  • I will leave the formatting issue alone for now, but when this topic is completed, I think the all these lists should look the same.
  • "Since founded"-->Since their foundation
    • Done
  • "whereas"-->and
    • Done
  • The image caption in the lead should have a period at the end. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:42, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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