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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Phi Kappa Psi brothers/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 01:49, 7 May 2010 [1].

List of Phi Kappa Psi brothers edit

List of Phi Kappa Psi brothers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nominator(s): NYCRuss ☎ 00:38, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured list because after going through a peer review, I believe that this list is either ready for featured list status, or is just a few tweaks away from getting there. NYCRuss ☎ 00:38, 17 April 2010 (UTC) Forgot to add CoI disclosure. I'm a member of Phi Kappa Psi. NYCRuss ☎ 14:51, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved comments from GrapedApe (talk) 15:26, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Initial review of the lead
  • I don't like the phrase "Brethren in academia," because it sounds too familiar, like how one member would refer to another member.
  • That second paragraph is killing me. "Brethren" was thrown in to mix up the phrasing of the sentences. I changed it. How does it read now? NYCRuss ☎ 14:51, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add a comma after "Edgar Fahs Smith"
  • The phrase "given acceptance speeches" could be more clear as "been awarded"
  • The phrase "The world of law has seen..." could be better phrased as "Three Phi Psis have served as..."
  • I'm not sure that PIMCO should be all caps. The article has it as Pimco
  • PIMCO is an acronym, so I believe that all caps are correct, but I could be wrong. NYCRuss ☎ 14:51, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should "mayor" in "New York City mayor" be capitalized? I think maybe, since it's a proper title, like President of the United States.
  • I don't know. The actual title is Mayor of the City of New York, for whatever that's worth. If you're an English expert, which I'm not, I'll take your word for it and capitalize it. NYCRuss ☎ 14:51, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not an English expert, but that does feel right to me. Any other opinions?--GrapedApe (talk) 15:31, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--GrapedApe (talk) 02:16, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • The paragraph describing how to become a brother might be too complicated. I have a hard time following it. Isn't the distinction between undergraduate members and alumni self evident?
  • This is where another opinion helps. I understand everything in there perfectly well, but I'm a Phi Psi. The distinction between an "undergraduate member" and an "alumni" member should be self evident, but it is not always that cut and dry. We allow graduate students to be actives, in which case they would be classified as an "undergraduate member" even though they are not undergraduates. Also, if an undergraduate transfers to another school with a Phi Psi chapter, but does not transfer his membership, he would be an alumnus, and not an undergraduate member, even though he is an undergraduate and a member. NYCRuss ☎ 14:51, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I guess what I should have said was "I get the whole process, but laymen might not." Maybe this paragraph should simply be pared down and simplified a bit. I'd like to hear other opinions.--GrapedApe (talk) 15:34, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I changed it. How does it read now? NYCRuss ☎ 20:00, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Better. I added a bit, myself. How does it look now?--GrapedApe (talk) 23:38, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It looks fine. Not 100% accurate, but good enough. 100% accuracy would require that the 3rd paragraph be stretched out with a lot of fraternity legalese, and that would put most people to sleep. NYCRuss ☎ 23:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I notice that quite a few individuals are listed multiple times. I don't know what the standard convention is (the FL criteria looks to be silent on this), but when I was working on my own recent FLC, I only listed each alumni once, usually in whatever field they were best known for. These guys appear multiple times, with possibly some more duplicates:
  • I'm not sure about the rules either, but I removed the duplicate entries. NYCRuss ☎ 23:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • For sources: Even though there's no reason to doubt its veracity, I'm not comfortable citing to LinkedIn for John Michels, since LinkedIn is no more reliable than facebook. I don't think it is a reliable source.--GrapedApe (talk) 00:00, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I removed Michels until a better source is obtained. This is what happens when a star college athlete needs to be unlisted. NYCRuss ☎ 18:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (for the things I looked at) - The things that I checked looked good, like the lead, the construction of the list, the sources, and the images. I did not check the notability text or whether the sources actually said what they were supposed to, so I can't speak to those things. Overall, it feels like a winner, with just the caveats for things I didn't check. Good work! --GrapedApe (talk) 19:34, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from ImGz (t/c) 01:34, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Agreed with GrapedApe it needs to be simplified or reworded a bit. Suggestions:
  • Describing what a colony is I think clutters things up, just link colony.
  • Agreed. I'll work on this when I rewrite the third paragraph. NYCRuss ☎ 18:40, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does "active" mean?
  • Any member who is a full time student at the host institution in which he was initiated, or to which he has transferred. Grad students have the option of taking alumni or active status. In Phi Kappa Psi, the terms "active member" and "undergraduate" member are used interchangeably, and this can be a source of confusion. It might be better to drop "undergraduate" and just use "active." NYCRuss ☎ 18:40, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That makes sense, as long as it's clarified in the article. :)
  • "An undergraduate member is active with a chapter, and a full-time enrolled student in that chapter's host institution at the undergraduate, graduate, or post-graduate level; all others are alumni" I assumed that by an undergraduate member you meant somebody who does not have a graduate or post-graduate degree nor are pursuing one, thus the term undergraduate. My sorority considers anybody with an undergraduate degree pursuing a graduate degree to be an alumni. If this is not the same it needs to be clarified since it's rather confusing.
  • Hopefully my response just above this comment clarifies this somewhat. Woodrow Wilson, for example, joined Phi Kappa Psi as a law student at Virginia, and then transferred his membership to Johns Hopkins where he earned his Ph.D. He was a chapter president at both. NYCRuss ☎ 18:40, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Homer A. Holt, William Preston Lane, Jr., Joseph W. Barr full date range.
  • Paul Coverdell - not sure died in office is needed there, I read it as 'he served from 1993 to 2000 and died in office during his second term.
  • "Paul Helmke Mayor of Fort Wayne, (1987–1999)" -> "Paul Helmke Mayor of Fort Wayne (1987–1999)"
  • Edgar Fahs Smith - remove the extra space after (1911–1920)
  • Another good catch, and removed. NYCRuss ☎ 18:40, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dick Tomey - for any notable teams? --ImGz (t/c)
  • After reading it again I think that the first part is what is making it awkward. I would suggest removing the first sentence, perhaps the second sentence as well, and doing something similar to this "which the initiate, or member, is known as a brother".
  • Do you mean the first two sentences of the article, or of the third paragraph? NYCRuss ☎ 18:40, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I meant the third paragraph, sorry. :)
  • OCLC for Phi Kappa Psi (1997). Grand Catalogue of the Phi Kappa Psi Fraternity (14th ed.). White Plains, NY: Bernard C. Harris Publishing Company.
  • Couldn't locate one. I was able to find an ISBN# on Google, but it is not valid. BKEH-W37-8RTC-84.0TX is an identifier inside the book, but I don't know to which system it belongs. NYCRuss ☎ 18:40, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is also using that number for the 13th edition, and it lists the 14th edition as being the 1992 edition, although printed in 1998. I don't trust that number. I'll try to find out if there is a number. I'm also getting the 2009 edition this week, so this might be a moot point. NYCRuss ☎ 01:55, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • 324731269 seems to be the right number, but because of the way that WorldCat has the information listed, it is possible that somebody could get the wrong edition. Anywho, 324731269 has been listed. NYCRuss ☎ 13:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Edward Herrmann - award-winning-actor?
Fixed. NYCRuss ☎ 18:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Harlan D. Logan - should Editor be capitalized? I'm not sure myself but it looks a little odd/jumps out at me.
I think that you're right. It is no longer capitalized. NYCRuss ☎ 18:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
William Joseph Donovan - should Founder be capitalized? In other instances in the article, also following commas, it is not capitalized.
Fixed. NYCRuss ☎ 18:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ernest O. Thompson - Might want to say Mayor of Amarillo, Texas.
Agreed and done. NYCRuss ☎ 18:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Luther Gotwald - is Wittenberg Theological Seminary still around (link?)
The name changed, and then it merged. A link has been added. NYCRuss ☎ 18:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kevin Berry - Maybe link Swimming at the 1964 Summer Olympics? --ImGz (t/c) 05:00, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed and done. NYCRuss ☎ 18:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Robert J. Garagiola - I think this would look better as (2002–present, Deputy Majority Leader), but that's just me.
Agreed and done. NYCRuss ☎ 22:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Herbert B. Powell - Should Commanding be capitalized?
I believe that it should as it is a formal title, but I could be wrong. NYCRuss ☎ 22:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Robert Lowry - Pretty sure it should be "19th century hymn writer" or maybe "19th century hymnodist"
The hyphen is gone. Hymnodist? You win the SAT word of the day award. It redirects to hymn, so I;m not sure if it is a good idea to link that. NYCRuss ☎ 22:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hah, I wish. I just gave the article a quick skim and saw it.
Buzzie Bavasi - Should First be capitalized?
Nope, and fixed. NYCRuss ☎ 22:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dan Dakich - Link 1070 The Fan?
Sure. NYCRuss ☎ 22:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tex Schramm - GM it's the first time you've used the abbreviation and as a non-sport person I should have no clue what it means (oddly enough I do, I think, but I would still spell out General Manager). --ImGz (t/c) 19:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. NYCRuss ☎ 22:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Periodicals - changing "contribution" to "title" will get rid of the double commas, it will also fix the formatting and put the article title in quotes (journal names should be italicized and articles that appear within the journal should be in quotations).
Good call! It is fixed. NYCRuss ☎ 22:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 15:09, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "also called "Phi Psi,"" do you have a ref for this?
  • I'll get to this tonight. NYCRuss ☎ 13:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't find a thing that explicitly states something like "members of Phi Kappa Psi call themselves 'Phi Psis'", but the usage is all over. I'm going to place a reference to the front page of the Phi Kappa Psi web site. NYCRuss ☎ 22:01, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm citing Baird's as a third party source. That should solve this. NYCRuss ☎ 15:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "More than 112,796 men..." odd phrase, more than such a precise figure...
  • That's the number in the cited publication, which is cited and can be viewed on the web. That said, it does seem odd, so it has been rounded down to 112,000. NYCRuss ☎ 13:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not at all keen on cross-namespace linking to our guideline on notability.
  • I don't understand this point. If you would elaborate, I'd appreciate it. NYCRuss ☎ 13:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "three term" hyphenate.
  • Spell out OSS before abbreviating it.
  • "(1895,1921), First editor" -> "(1895, 1921), first editor"...
  • "award winning" I think this should be hyphenated.
  • "Academy Award–winning " hyphen, not en-dash. And now you need to hyphenate consistently throughout.
    Fixed. NYCRuss ☎ 13:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "cult classic Clueless" cult classic? Says who?
  • That phrase was there when I started editing this article. It is now removed. NYCRuss ☎ 13:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "most famous for " again, says who? Be careful not to introduce your own opinion here.
  • That was another inherited entry. It has been changed. NYCRuss ☎ 13:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove spaces between references.
  • I would suggest changing the Reference col heading to Ref(s) as you have more than one in several instances and it would help free up a bit more col width for the description.
  • "U.S. governors and lieutenant governors" I think one fellow is out of place as when I sorted by name, the initial order changed...
  • "USS James C. Owens" I think ships are generally formatted as "USS James C. Owens"
  • "won 7 gold" seven.
  • Any reason why the Volume I/II is in bold?
  • The template is doing that. Anything entered in the volume field is rendered in boldface. NYCRuss ☎ 13:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's the deal with the "Web sites"? Why aren't they used as normal {{cite web}}s?
  • {{cite web}} is being used. Do you mean that the section header should be changed from "Web sites" to something else? NYCRuss ☎ 13:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I mean if they're being used specifically then why aren't they inline refs? They don't appear to apply to the whole list. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I thought the the footnotes looked cleaner when they were all short. I went ahead and placed the web refs inline. What do you think? NYCRuss ☎ 22:01, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 09:17, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • The "Father of..." and "Wild Bill" nicknames, are they referenced anywhere?
  • I'll look into this tonight or tomorrow. NYCRuss ☎ 13:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC) Found a citation for the "Wild Bill" nickname, with a Google Books preview, and added it to the William Joseph Donovan article. Does the citation also need to be added to this list? NYCRuss ☎ 15:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC) There are now citations for the "Father of..." nicknames on the main Wikipedia bio articles for Phog Allen and Billy Mitchell. Do the citations need to be added to the list as well? NYCRuss ☎ 21:40, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • State and local legislators table is different in col widths from the others.
  • I'm not seeing that. What browser, OS and screen resolution are you using? NYCRuss ☎ 13:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I get problems in Firefox/XP and Safari/OS X with several tables actually, it's related to the "notability" column. If it doesn't fill the whole column, then the col itself foreshortens. It's an issue for me right now with Mayors, State and local legislators and Diplomats, to name but three. There are several others... The Rambling Man (talk) 15:09, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I changed all columns to percentages, and placed each table in a cell of a larger table, with the images in another cell, and set table widths to 100%. How does it look now? NYCRuss ☎ 16:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good, all col widths the same, just now have a bit of a problem with bags of whitespace at the end of each section with multiple images. I assume your resolution is quite low, mine, around 1000 pixels wide, shows that Jackson Turner's image has no table at all next to it, nor Scheider, nor Schurz, the last six congressmen etc etc... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:39, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see those blank spaces too. (Frederick Jackson Turner, The guy from Jaws, James Whitcomb Riley, Carl Schurz, all the pictures from Ellison D. Smith to James Eli Watson, William C. Sproul, David Taylor).--GrapedApe (talk) 16:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm using Max OS X @ 1680x1050 primarily with Google Chrome, but I was trying to keep the page optimized for 1024x768. Anyway, I dumped a bunch of images, and it should look better now. NYCRuss ☎ 17:06, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick comment – Lead looks okay to me, with the exception of this one sentence: "In academia, Phi Psis are among over a dozen university presidents...". I would hope that all of them are/were Phi Psis, or they wouldn't be relevant to this list. Some restructuring of the sentence is all that will be required to fix this. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:24, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That sentence has been changed to this: "Academian Phi Psis include over a dozen university presidents (including among these are Priestley Medal recipient Edgar Fahs Smith, and Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient Detlev Bronk), Rhodes scholars, and Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Frederick Jackson Turner." How is that? NYCRuss ☎ 23:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I would move Judge Advocate Generals in the lead to either the front or back of that sentence. As it stands currently the sentence reads "dozens of generals and admirals (general titles, not people) including [specific person], JAGs, [specific person], [specific person]." That order seems a bit confusing to me as JAGs don't really fit with the "dozens of generals... including" sentence order." Maybe put it in it's own sentence entirely. Staxringold talkcontribs 17:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I changed it. How does it read now? NYCRuss ☎ 17:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Jujutacular T · C 17:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "two Directors of the Peace Corps" should director be capitalized?
  • "Fortune 500 CEOs are brothers with Bank of America founder Orra E. Monnette..." the use of 'brothers' is confusing in this context.
  • I dropped mention of Fortune 500 CEOs and reworked that sentence. How does it read? NYCRuss ☎ 17:29, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jujutacular T · C 17:15, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Nice looking list, good work. Jujutacular T · C 17:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I can not find any problem that could prevent promotion of this list to the Featured status. Ruslik_Zero 19:02, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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