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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Norwich City F.C. managers/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:31, 24 May 2017 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Norwich City F.C. managers edit

List of Norwich City F.C. managers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (talk) & Dweller (talk) 15:56, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dweller and yours truly are nominating this for featured list. We've working across the divide for the first time in a while, this is another in the series of Norwich/Ipswich featured articles/lists that we have collaborated on. The list is almost secondary as the mighty prose preceding it is thorough, well referenced and (the bits that I didn't do) well written. In light of some of the recent managers nominations, we think this is in keeping with the current standard expected of such lists. We are both dedicated to resolving any and all issues as soon as practicable. As ever, our combined thanks to anyone prepared to give up their time in reviewing this list. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 15:56, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Ianblair23 (talk) 10:29, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man and Dweller: A very fine list gentlemen. My comments are below:
Done, good spot --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:55, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • he left the club to take charge of Everton unlink Everton F.C.
And again --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:55, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:06, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notes:
    • There is a note that is commented out that should be removed
Done --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:05, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers – Ianblair23 (talk) 13:43, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's a splendid review, most helpful, thanks! --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:52, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ianblair23 all addressed, thanks for the extensive and detailed review. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh, TRM, you're so fast! Thanks for handling so many. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:04, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I know, I'm pretty good at this stuff. Probably in the top 3 of all Wikpiedians. I probably deserve some kind of platinum barnstar or maybe an iridium or osmium one. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:38, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I could always block you so we "plebs" can catch up. No? Ah well.... Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:11, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man and Dweller: Thanks for your prompt response guys. A few other things that I have picked up:
  • the alt text needs to be placed before the caption in all four images
  • Lead:
  • As of March 2017 add {{As of}}
  • managed Norwich in their only European campaign to date in the UEFA Cup sharper link to 1993–94 UEFA Cup
  • Early years:
  • The earliest known recorded link between the club and canaries Sorry guys, first mention of the link canaries is in this sentence. Link Atlantic canary here and unlink later in the paragraph
  • Premier League, Europe and club centenary:
  • much of the 2004–05 season remove the words 2004–05 and unlink (mistake made in this edit)
  • and Norwich qualified for European football in the 2001–02 season remove the words 2001–02 and unlink (mistake made in this edit)
  • Table:
  • Paul Franklin is missing "format=dmy"
  • Managers:
  • as of March 2017, 128 individuals add {{As of}}
  • As of 14 March 2017. Only professional add {{As of}}
  • References:
  • Ref 18 change title to "Club history – 1986–1995"
Cheers – Ianblair23 (talk) 11:40, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ianblair23 thanks again Ian, all comments responded to and addressed where appropriate. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:47, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man and Dweller: Thanks guys. The only outstanding issue I have is the overlinking in the references section. My reading is the one-link rule applies in the section as well. What are your thoughts on this? – Ianblair23 (talk) 04:29, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ianblair23 thanks. My view on this is that a reader could click on any link ref and be taken to that entry in the references. It may not be the first instance of the publisher/work so it may not be the linked one, and so the reader, if interested, would need to work backwards through the links to find the linked one. I see it in the same way as I see why we repeat links in sortable tables. The reader may not experience the linked one first. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:46, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just a few comments:

  • "but most notably in the 1958–59 FA Cup" - I've just never been happy with "notably" in articles, see WP:ITSHOULDBENOTED - I'd normally go for "most significantly" or something like that. The word appears quite a few times through the remainder of the prose too. Any thoughts?
    Fixed --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:38, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Norwich City was founded as an amateur football club" - what year?
    Done. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:28, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and we know that he spent the summer of 1903" - as "we know" doesn't appear inside a quotation, shouldn't this be something like "it is known" (ie: using third person)
    Don't think we need it at all. Deleted. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:29, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "remains as one of the truly great periods in Norwich City's history" - though this is a quote, I think a simpler paraphrase like "it is regarded as one of the most successful periods of the club's history" would be better
    I think this kind of [what would become] editorialising is far better done as a quote from RS --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:40, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but in which case I think it would help to attribute who said the quote - in this case the official history of NCFC (?). The source attributing the quotation is a dead link, incidentally. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:53, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Attributed to the club. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:54, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but bounced back to the top tier the following season after finishing third" - I'm not sure that "bounced back" is particularly encyclopedic
    Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Independent described the win in Munich as "the pinnacle of Norwich City's history"" - the source given is the Eastern Daily Press - I can't see where in the linked article that The Independent is mentioned as attribution for the quote
    Great spot. Probably my fault. Fixed. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:16, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the club's performance nosedived" - "nosedived" - see "bounced back" earlier
    Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Norwich's spell in the top flight" - same issue, "top flight"
    Not sure, this seems okay-ish to me. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A very informative list about a longstanding team you don't hear too much about outside the sports columns, despite major success from time to time. Well done, chaps. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:57, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Major success"? I don't think so... thanks for your comments, we'll get to them ASAP. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:14, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oi. Watch it. ;-) --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:17, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ritchie333 I think all your comments have been responded to and addressed where appropriate? Thanks for your review. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just one issue to follow up, above. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:53, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ritchie333 done I think. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:54, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, one more thing is I'm picking up quite a few deadlinks, which are :

I assume most of these can be fixed relatively straightforwardly with a Wayback Machine link. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:57, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Done, I think, but one or two were already there with archive urls. Could you check again please? Ta. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/History/0,,10355~1025327,00.html is still being reported as dead. I'm going off this script, btw Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:52, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Got it I think. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:20, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, that works. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:35, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support - no more concerns, everything checks out Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:35, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

  • The first thing I look for in any article about a football club is what division they are in. I suggest adding at the end of the lead that as of May 2017 they are in the Championship.
  • "to ever defeat Bayern Munich at the Olympic Stadium" I think this could do with explanation as there are many Olympic stadiums, and you have to go through the linked article to find that this was Bayern's home ground from 1972 to 2005.
  • "according to Eastwood" This needs explanation such as "according the offical history of the club by John Eastwood"
  • "but by then the club had secured their first professional manager, John Bowman" Why "but"? I would say "and"
  • "The earliest known recorded link" "known recorded" sounds a bit awkward. I would delete recorded as superfluous.
  • "although at this time the club nickname was still "Citizens"" I would delete the word "still" as it is the first time this has been mentioned. Is it known why they were called citizens?
  • "The new appointee was James McEwen" This reads as if you have said Bowman left Maybe "In [year] James McEwen was appointed"
  • "the club was rescued from liquidation, reformed, with Archie Macaulay appointed manager." The grammar is not right here.
  • "A highly successful first season saw promotion back to the First Division" You have not said that they had been relegated.
  • I got confused what divisions were being referred to with the changes of name for the second tier from second to first to championship. Some clarification would help.
  • "Darren Huckerby" - "player Darren Huckerby"?
  • No change needed but is it common that clubs on a similiar level to Norwich have never had a foreign manager? Dudley Miles (talk) 11:52, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Dudley, I'll get to these as soon as I can. In answer to your question, I asked myself that too and compared it to List of Ipswich Town F.C. managers, a team on a similar level (and in a similar location) who also have not had any foreign (i.e. non-UK) managers. So not that remarkable. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:23, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Dudley Miles I've made a number of changes to reflect your comments. The only one I haven't addressed directly is the naming of divisions whic really I would find difficult to do elegantly. That's really the task of another article. Thanks for your comments! The Rambling Man (talk) 07:13, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. A first rate article. A couple of suggestions. 1. I would make clear that the reason Huckerby's complaint was controversial was that he was a Norwich player at the time. 2. I think it would help to add a note along the lines of: "The second tier of English football was called the Second Division from 1892 to 1992, the First Division from 1992 to 2004, and the Championship since 2004." Dudley Miles (talk) 20:20, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks Dudley, I've hopefully clarified the first point, but I'm still struggling to work out where the note goes. Any thoughts? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about after "He arrived at the club before the 1992–93 inaugural season of the English Premier League." - maybe changing the note to "When the Premier League started in 1992, the second tier changed its name from the Second Division to the First Division. It was renamed again as the Championship in 2004." Dudley Miles (talk) 22:04, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cassianto edit

I've only just seen this and wished I'd seen it sooner. I've made a couple of corrections as I've gone. There's some things that have become immediately obvious that I didn't want to go ahead an fix without garnering views first. I originally posted this on the talk page as I noticed the nomination had finished, so thanks to Rambling Man for allowing me the chance to comment here by re-opening it. Note: I know about as much about football than I do about neuroscience. If any of it doesn't make sense, especially my comments around "divisions" and "tables", then please assume your version. As with all my comments, please feel free to implement or disregard any of them at your discretion. Here goes:

Early years

  • "In the early years of the club's history, there was no manager." → "During the club's early years, there was no manager." Or "During the club's early years, it was was without a manager". Or "According to the club's history, it was without a manager when it was newly formed..."
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...according to the official history of the club by John Eastwood..." is this a book? The sentence is written like it is? If so, could it be clarified and perhaps mentioned if it is?
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The club officials, including Turner, had to be removed from office and Norwich were to be ousted from the amateur game at the end of the season." Were they ousted? If so, I'd say so.
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On 30 May 1905, they were elected to play in the Southern League, in place of Wellingborough, and by then the club had secured their first professional manager, John Bowman." -- I'm not sure of the conjunction here. It is far too unrelated to the initial sentence.
    Adjusted. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bowman also has a place in Norwich City history..." the adverb of "also" here is not appropriate for a new paragraph, IMO. Perhaps say: "Bowman took a place in Norwich City history..." or "Bowman has a place in Norwich City history..."
    Adjusted. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The earliest recorded link between the club and canaries... -- perhaps place inverts around canaries, or are you actually explaining the link between NUFC and the bird itself?
    It's the link between NCFC (not NUFC, that's a different club!) and real canaries. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I told you my football knowledge was questionable. CassiantoTalk 14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""James McEwen, a Scot and a current City player, was appointed in 1907." Three things: A far too informal use of the word "Scot" for a featured article, IMO. 2). What was he appointed as? and 3). I've heard of staying as long as you can in order to get the prized gold watch on long service retirement, but surely, after 110 years, even McEwen must've gone by now!
    Adjusted. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would it be safe to assume that most would've heard of "travelling expenses"? If so, we may have a spot of overlinking. Also, the txt this is in, is this a quote from somewhere? I was always led to believe we don't link in quotes?
    Unlinked. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rise to the top division

  • "Macaulay oversaw one of the club's greatest achievements, its run to the semi-final of the 1958–59 FA Cup." although not strictly illegal in the world of punctuation, I cannot help but feel a colon would be better suited.
    Re-punc'ed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Norwich were the third-ever Third Division team to reach the FA Cup semi-final." -- unfortunate that they were the third team in the Third Division, but it doesn't escape the even more unfortunate fact that this third/third repetition occurs. How about: "Norwich were the third-ever Division Three team to reach the FA Cup semi-final."?
    Not really, it was always known as the Third Division, not Divison Three... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Unavoidable then, I'd say. CassiantoTalk 14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Norwich were promoted to the Second Division after finishing second to Southampton..." -- and again here, how about: "Norwich were promoted to the Second Division after finishing behind Southampton, who secured first place."?
    Reworded, slightly differently from your suggestion. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Fine. CassiantoTalk 14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, following a boardroom row after a 3–1 home defeat to Everton on 17 November 1973, Saunders resigned as manager on the spot. The new man in charge was John Bond who oversaw the club's relegation that season." -- What value does "on the spot" add? He resigned and the immediacy of it, as far as I can see, is wholly irrelevant, unless of course it wasn't? Also, "The new man in charge..." is less preferable to "The new manager" or "John Bond took over as manager" or something similar...
    Resigning immediately after a defeat is vanishingly rare, in fact I can't think of another example. Reworded the Bond thing. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Fine. CassiantoTalk 14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The 1984–85 season was one of mixed fortunes for the club; a fire gutted the old Main Stand on 25 October 1984 but on the pitch, under Brown's management, they reached the final of the League Cup (known at that time as the Milk Cup) at Wembley, having defeated local rivals Ipswich Town in the semi-final. In the final, they beat Sunderland 1–0, but in the league both Norwich and Sunderland were relegated to the second tier of English football." Why do we omit a comma after the first "but" in "...a fire gutted the old Main Stand on 25 October 1984 but on the pitch", but use one later for "In the final, they beat Sunderland 1–0, but in the league..."?
    Comma added. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He kept Norwich in the top tier and the following season Norwich finished fourth, which, like 1986–87, would have been enough for 1989–90 UEFA Cup qualification, but the ban on English clubs was still in place. -- assuming one knows why there was a ban in place? As a non-follower, I have no idea. Also, the year range jars a little; I'd suggest: "He kept Norwich in the top tier and the following season Norwich finished fourth, which, like the 1986–87 season, would have been enough for 1989–90 UEFA Cup qualification..."
    The ban is noted in the Heysel Stadium article which is linked but I've added a section link too. Your suggestion repeats the rapid repetition of Norwich, so I've re-worded that... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, the 1991–92 season saw Norwich flirt with relegation, finishing 18th and Stringer resigned" -- clumsy conjunction here.
    Reworded, but suboptimally I think, feel free to tweak it yourself. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    No need. CassiantoTalk 14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Premier League, Europe and club centenary

  • "The Independent described the win in Munich as "the pinnacle of Norwich City's history" -- I would think it entirely impossible for a paper to say this, a journalist from the paper, would be more likely.
    Reworded. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Reflecting on the shock result... a spot of editorialising here.
    Shock's off. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...in January 1994, he left the club to take charge of Everton" -- as Mayor? Councillor? Or Everton F.C.?
    Since Everton's already been linked and this is all about football management, I think that stands up to scrutiny. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Walker had commented to the press earlier in his time at Norwich that "to earn a decent salary" What benefit does the inverts have around "to earn a decent salary"? It would be just as impactive without them.
    I guess "decent salary" doesn't read particuarly encyclopedically. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Hard to paraphrase without breaching OR/POV/PEACOCK or some combination thereof. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:57, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    "Decent" could be changed, although it could be attributed to a quote or person; i.e, "Walker considered his salary to be good". CassiantoTalk 14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Walker's replacement was first team coach John Deehan..." The definite article is far more superior to use in a BritEng article compared to the American way of saying things, even more so, here. This occurs elsewhere in the article, but it is a matter for either one of you to adopt or disregard.
    Added. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...the club sold 21-year-old striker Chris Sutton to Blackburn Rovers for a then British record fee of £5 million. Maybe here, too.
    The added. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Walker was unable to repeat the success... As we speak of Walker in the previous sentence, and no one else, I'd use a pronoun here.
    Removed quick Walker repeat. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please check for overlinks to Bryan Gunn.
    Reduced overlinking. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "however they suffered a shock 1–7 defeat. "shock", again.
    Removed "shock". The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He oversaw a turnaround in fortunes to lead Norwich to promotion back to The Championship... -- Watch for caps...
    The Championship is the formal name of the league below the Premier League. ~~
    Fine. CassiantoTalk 14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There maybe an overlink to Alan Irvine, but for the life of me, I can't find it. Is there a tool that can be used to check for overlinks? There always used to be.
    Not overlinked, yes there is a tool, have a look in my monobook.js. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, and shamelessly nicked for future use. CassiantoTalk 14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And that's it, I think. I'll have another read through when you're done. Ordinarily, and with this amount of comments, I would've opposed. But I'm confident that these minor issues can be fixed or discussed to the benefit of the article, especially with you two at the helm. Good work and I now understand a subject a little bit better than I did before. CassiantoTalk 16:42, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

All addressed and/or responded to Cassianto, thanks! The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You are very welcome. Support. CassiantoTalk 14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing as re-promoted! --PresN 12:11, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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