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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Major League Baseball pitchers with 18 strikeouts in one game/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 10:02, 8 April 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Major League Baseball pitchers with 18 strikeouts in one game edit

List of Major League Baseball pitchers with 18 strikeouts in one game (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Bloom6132 (talk) 11:40, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because I feel it has been improved significantly over the past few months and now meets all 6 FL criteria. —Bloom6132 (talk) 11:40, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments Couple of questions. First, does fn 'a' really serve a purpose? It has cites, but nothing to do with the 18 strikeout line it's alluding to. Second, could you link to extra innings at some point in the extra innings section? Also, a more general note, but both fn 'a' and the explanation of why the extra innings list is separate feel slightly conversational. So happy to see this, I assume (given the 'in one game' title that you used List of Major League Baseball hitters with four home runs in one game at least in part as a model? Staxringold talkcontribs 14:09, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fn is meant to explain why 18 Ks was chosen as the number. I previously got comments on the article's talk page and my own talk page as to why the cutoff point is 18, as opposed to 17 or 19. It's basically to help people who aren't familiar with baseball to understand how 18 Ks equals ~2⁄3 of a game. Second point—linked extra innings in section. And your four HRs list wasn't only the model; it's the clear inspiration for this list and my recently promoted 2 grand slams FL as well. Someone had to start somewhere and get the ball rolling, so thank you for that! —Bloom6132 (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tell a lie, another bit. Could you provide a text footnote for Randy Johnson's extra inning game? For an inexperienced reader it might be odd to see "9 IP" for a game listed under the extra-innings section. Just something brief like "Although the game went into extra innings, Johnson was relieved by another pitcher after just nine innings." Staxringold talkcontribs 14:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Crisco 1492 (talk)
Comments from Crisco 1492
  • to date - replace with As of 2013, or As of March 2013, or some other specific and non-relative date, to ensure verifiability
  • For the note about strikeouts, perhaps note that these 18 of 27 strikeouts were also made by the same pitcher, as pitchers can change during games
  • Done. Stated "...were made by a single pitcher..." —Bloom6132 (talk) 17:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • thirteen were right-handed and five pitched left-handed - a link to a relevant article about handedness in baseball?
Thanks for the review! —Bloom6132 (talk) 17:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on prose and images. Looks pretty good! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – I'm a bit concerned about the scope of this list, as I don't see any evidence provided that analysts consider the 18-strikeout mark to be significant. Why is this that much better than recording 16 or 17 strikeouts in a game? If we're doing it strictly on the basis of math, I wonder whether that is a strong enough reason. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:16, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • 18 has been the benchmark since Feller reached the mark in 1938, setting an MLB record for the live-ball era. It stayed that way for 21 seasons before Koufax could tie it and 31 seasons before Carlton broke it [2]. I'm hypothesizing that's why there's all this lore behind 18. 18 is also mentioned in The Economist, though I didn't include this as a source since it's a "blog" (albeit from a reliable news source). —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:44, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm very concerned that this "18 strikeouts" is an artificial record. We do need independent sources that suggest this benchmark is more significant than, say, 20 strikeouts. The notes relating to the selection of 18 strikeouts simply point to rules of baseball, nothing to substantiate that anyone other the blogger and the nominator really considers 18 to be of any particularly significant note. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:22, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Found an ESPN source that uses 18 Ks as the benchmark (i.e. "Is 14 strikeouts in a playoff game against a great offensive team more dominating than 18 strikeouts against a crappy team in May"). Good enough? —Bloom6132 (talk) 11:02, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so. That's a writer's personal opinion mixed in with lots of other personal opinion. I'm looking for something where multiple reliable sources have remarked that 18 strikeouts is a benchmark, definitively, rather than just the opinion of one journalist (who uses language like "crappy team"!)... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:03, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There's no non-paywall source that specifically mentions 18 Ks as a benchmark. History.com notes that 18 was the previous record ("Koufax’s total of 18 strikeouts in the game broke Dizzy Dean’s 26-year-old National League record, and tied the major league record held by Cleveland Indian ace Bob Feller."). I think that's the reason why 18 has been the unwritten and unofficial "benchmark". This paywall source indirectly mentions 18 Ks, in that Sheets was "just the 20th time in major league history a pitcher has fanned 18 or more in a nine-inning game" and that "[t]o throw just 116 pitches with 18 strikeouts is almost unheard of." —Bloom6132 (talk) 17:35, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I'm sorry to be a pain in the ass/butt/arse but I still can't really see a series of reliable sources noting this as a genuinely widely accepted benchmark. Does Baseball Almanack or similar list it? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:37, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There's no need to be sorry. It's actually good that FLC has reviewers like you that scrutinize candidates extensively and carefully before passing them. That way, the FL standards are always held very high. And no, neither Baseball Almanac or Baseball Reference have a list. Only MLB.com and USA Today provide a list of 18 K pitchers, but they don't explain why it's significant. They simply present the list as if it were the widely accepted benchmark. Furthermore, precedent has been set where a simple list is enough to establish the benchmark. I actually attempted to AFD the List of Major League Baseball runs scored champions for exactly the same reason—that there weren't any sources specifically referring to the subject title. That was flatly rejected. So, as long as there are several sources (e.g. tables) covering the stats and there are no counter-examples available (i.e. a 16, 17 or 19 K table), then it is not an artificial record. —Bloom6132 (talk) 21:43, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, well thank you for taking the time and effort to explain this, I very much appreciate it and understand that it's annoying when you've made such a decent effort at a FLC. I'm happy that this should run its normal course at FLC, but, if you don't mind, I'll leave my comments open for others to see just in case they have the same thoughts and thought processes we've had. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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