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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Iowa State Cyclones head football coaches/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 07:56, 2 March 2010 [1].

List of Iowa State Cyclones head football coaches edit

Nominator(s): —NMajdan•talk, DUKyleXY
Toolbox

Big 12 head coach list #4. I think this list is now ready for promotion to FL.—NMajdan•talk 15:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Full disclosure, I was not the original creator of this list. That honor goes to DUKyleXY. I took it over because it was so close to FL-quality and he had stopped working on it for about a month and a half. He has now joined in the FLC discussion.—NMajdan•talk 14:44, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Staxringold talkcontribs 16:19, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments
  • I wasn't even aware of that article. Its more specific, so I changed the link in the lead.—NMajdan•talk
  • The grid already fills up so much space horizontally that I'm afraid adding an image would crowd the table. I found three images of other coaches. What about a gallery below the table?—NMajdan•talk
  • I've never been a big fan of image galleries. Maybe stick one more in the notes section to the right? Might bleed into references, but there are more images out there, it'd be nice to have em. Staxringold talkcontribs 22:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added the image to the notes section.—NMajdan•talk 14:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "since organized football began in 1892" Could that be changed to "since organized football began at the school in 1892" or something? Just to make it clear you're speaking to the school, not the birth of the game.
  • I definitely don't dispute calling Pop Warner "legendary", but that appears to be all that citation #1 gets at. The original name "Cardinals" and the very specific name change date are, as far as I see, uncited. Also the game and score for that date.
  • This is the first list article that somebody had really done a good job on that I took over editing and the "legendary" part was not added by me, and I agree with you. I removed the wording and will re-evaluate that first reference.—NMajdan•talk
  • I have added the original source, the Chicago Tribune article from 1895, to clear up the sourcing issue.DUKyleXY (talk) 14:32, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, well, nevermind. Looking further down I see citation #3 covers this info. Could you repeat it to make it clear where that very specific past name and date come are sourced?
  • Is it necessary to repeat the citation on the same fact, even if that fact covers a couple sentences? I always thought putting it at the end would suffice.
  • I would say it's worth repeating. It is quite a bit further down, you'll note in my own comments I did a double take because I initially missed it. Staxringold talkcontribs 01:13, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Iowa State have played in more than 1,000" Why not give the precise number?
  • When I wrote the article, I thought that giving a precise number would be inefficient as that would change more frequently than just once a year, thus "over 1000 games in their 117 seasons..." DUKyleXY (talk) 14:32, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In addition to that, would it be worth including a "totals" row on the bottom (you can use {{sort}} and set it to zzzz in boxes like the order and date so the sorting stays clear) as a reference point? Staxringold talkcontribs 20:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Although this article has the potential to be an FL, I do not feel that the list is sourced enough and if more are added then this page has the potential to become an FL. Other than that, all links are good and there are no technical problems with the page--Pianoplonkers (talk • contribs) 22:48, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't know there was a requirement for minimum number of sources. Are there any unsourced statements? I guess I don't fully understand this criticism.—NMajdan•talk 00:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the issue is with having the data for the table sourced in general citations rather than inline. I take no issue with that, but it leaves the references looking thin. Staxringold talkcontribs 01:13, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 15:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "Sept. 29, 1895" don't see a need to abbreviate September here.
  • "routed" - POV.
  • "36-0" en-dash please.
  • " "cyclone"[2])" I would put the ref outside of the )
  • Poor old Banker, no article...
  • Term doesn't sort correctly.
  • Why isn't Rhoads' CT 0 instead of an endash? And his PT? Aha, note 2 tells me why. Anyway, what happens is this messes up the sort as the en-dash should be treated the same as a 0...
  • C% doesn't sort correctly because of this...
  • All the sorts appear to work in FF 3.5 and IE8.—NMajdan•talk
  • The sorting is incorrect on both Term and C% in Safari still.... The Rambling Man (talk) 15:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 18:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Frankly, I don't feel like I should have to download and test every list in IE, FF, Opera, Safari, and Chrome. If it sorts correctly in the two browsers that account for 86% of viewers, then that should be good enough. Or at the very least, fix should be made at the MediaWiki level.—NMajdan•talk 15:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's a shame, as it appears that while Term sorts okay in IE7 and Firefox 3.0 and 3.6, C% still doesn't. So, on that basis, and the fact that all other FLs have had their sorting working on all the browsers I use, I must oppose the nomination. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since I don't have Safari, can you provide a few examples of lists that do sort correctly, preferably American football-related.—NMajdan•talk 16:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll see what I can do when I get home. Incidentally, you said C% sorts correctly for you in FF 3.5, is that the case? I get the .375 out of order in 3 and 3.6... My gut instinct on solving this is the same as the cricket lists which have a mixture of numbers, 0's and en-dashes... I've always just gone straight for the {{SortKey}} template.... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(<) Okay, the majority of head coach FLs are not sortable, the college ones you work on are exceptions. List of Oklahoma Sooners head football coaches & List of Oklahoma State Cowboys head football coaches both have problems in sorting the Term column under Safari, while C% sorts differently on each - on the Sooners' list, the en-dash appears to be treated as a zero so sorts (in my mind) correctly, while the Cowboys C% sorts the en-dashes as if they are greater than .900 (the largest number in the column). This list sorts the en-dashes first, then .375, then .125 onwards... List of England Twenty20 International cricketers (while not football I know) displays examples of how I've previously sorted en-dashes, zeros, numbers and other data. It seems to work there, but as I say, using {{SortKey}} quite a bit. Once we've solved it here, I suggest you roll the changes into the other two FLs I've mentioned. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • You're right on the C% issue. That has been fixed.—NMajdan•talk 17:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just really confused how Safari is sorting the Term column. The MediaWiki software should evaluate the column data type the same way. My understanding of HELP:SORT is that the term column should be evaluated as a numeric data type. There is no repeat of the year in the first four digits. May I ask how it is not sorting correctly? Is it just a couple rows switched or is it completely out of order? Typing this as I think.... Unless en dashes are treated differently than hypens and so it evaluates the column as a string. However, even then, it should still know that even with alpha sorting, "1941" comes before "1942" and "1902–1906" comes before "1907–1912". Once it hits the fourth character and sees "2" and "7", nothing after that should matter. Obviously, I'm very puzzled by this.—NMajdan•talk 18:02, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, indeed. I'm not claiming to be an expert, just a veteran I suppose. Have you tried using the SortKey template there? You could use {{SortKey|1945|1945–51}} for instance on each line and see what you get? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't tried but I'm sure it would fix the issue. I'm just hesitant to use a template to fix what may be a software/MediaWiki glitch. I downloaded Safari and took a look and I raised the issue at Help:SORT. I'm going to leave this alone for a day or two to see if I can get any quick responses there. If I don't or they tell me its behaving normally, then I'll add a sort template to this column.—NMajdan•talk 18:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You saw the same issue in the Windows version of Safari? I'm using Mac OS X so that may be different still.... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I saw an issue in Windows Safari. Don't know if its the same issue as yours.—NMajdan•talk 18:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, well let's see what the folks at Help:Sort say. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, appears to be a WebKit bug, not a MediaWiki bug. I've inserted templates to resolve the sort issue and have successfully tested it on Windows Safari. Let me know if this resolved it for you too.—NMajdan•talk 21:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed now for me on Mac OS X Safari. I thank you for your patience and diligence in following this to its conclusion. Hopefully you'll be good enough to roll out the modifications to the other current FLC and the two other college football coach FLs. My last point is that it's a shame Banker has no article, but it doesn't entirely detract from what is an excellent list. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Great. I'll roll out the change to my other FLC and eventually by other FLs.—NMajdan•talk 16:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 16:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • Italics for Chicago Tribune in the text.
  • "Iowa State have played in more then 1,000 games during their 117 seasons." I believe Iowa State is meant as a singular element, not plural (different from how an English soccer team is treated). As such, this should start "The Cyclones", or "have" and "their" should be switched to singular form.
  • Is it worth adding W. F. Finney's winning percentage to the lead in parenthetical form.
  • I didn't add the percentage, but I clarified in the lead that he never won a game (thus implying a winning percentage of .000).—NMajdan•talk
  • "Major, Bruce and McCarney...". Is the first word a typo?
  • Ha, kinda. The coach's name is Majors, not Major. Fixed.—NMajdan•talk

Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:39, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments.—NMajdan•talk 17:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Held back originally because of TRM's Safari issue, which I was unable to check for myself since I use Internet Explorer. Now that he's satisfied, I see no reason this shouldn't be featured. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:06, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments
  • In the table the name entry for Earle Bruce has the reference before the dagger. In my opinion, it just looks out of place between the dagger and the name.
  • The lead says the team has had 32 HCs but the table only shows 31.

Everything else looks great! Keep up the good work can't wait to see these all come together in the Featured Topic! NThomas (talk) 17:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support - NThomas (talk) 15:50, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Mm40 (talk) 21:28, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Mm40 (talk)
Comments from Mm40 (talk)
  • "officially sanctioned in 1894" sounds odd at the end of the sentence, separated from the rest by a comma.
  • The order of the sentence about the name change is odd. I suggest rewording to "the Cardinals defeated the Northwestern Wildcats 36–0 under coach Glenn "Pop" Warner"
  • I think an "a" is needed between "then called" and "cyclone" in the parenthesis
  • Your quote from the Chicago Tribune article is missing a word: "as with the Iowa team it met yesterday"
  • In the second paragraph, why not give the exact number of games they've played?
  • This issue has already been discussed, please check the resolved comments by Staxringold. DUKyleXY (talk) 16:29, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suggest "Only Clyde Williams has won a conference championship with the Cyclones" as the colon followed by only one name seems a bit odd
  • In the "CCs" column, you might want to change the dash following the "2" in Williams' row to a colon
  • Consider centering the "Awards" column
  • Unlink "college football" in note 2?
  • You might give Majors' term in his caption, such as "Jonnhy Majors, coach of the Cyclones from 1968 to 1972"
  • Why aren't refs 5 and 10 archived?
  • Ref 5 can't be archived, it has a no-cache tag. Ref 10, well, I just didn't archive it. I feel like there will always be someplace online that has the college football hall of famers and so i'm not too concerned about losing that info.—NMajdan•talk
  • Reference 11 needs a retrieval date
  • Is there a typo in McCarney's "Term" column? It overlaps with the next coach
  • I don't seem to have the same issue, but there is no typo. DUKyleXY (talk) 16:29, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Typo in the ALT text: "of a mean". Also, not like it really matters, but the two ALT text's are inconsistent about spacing "headshot"

I'll support once these issues are resolved. Mm40 (talk) 15:39, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank DUKyleXY, for handling most of these during my weekend absence. I believe all the issues have been resolved.—NMajdan•talk 16:28, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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