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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Chicago Cubs Opening Day starting pitchers/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 17:30, 22 December 2009 [1].

List of Chicago Cubs Opening Day starting pitchers edit

Nominator(s): Rlendog (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

I am nominating this for featured list because I feel it meets the criteria. This list is more similar to List of Philadelphia Phillies Opening Day starting pitchers than the other Opening Day starting pitcher FLs because, like the Phillies list, this list goes back to the 19th century, and less information is available for the 19th century and early 20th century (and the sources do not summarize the data as usefully) than more recent data. Rlendog (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from KV5
Comments from KV5
  • You don't use the MLB abbreviation, so remove it from the lead.
  • "Opening Day" is sometimes capitalized and sometimes not. In remaining consistent with the title, capitalize all.
  • "record of six wins, one loss and on tie" - one tie. Also, I don't know if these would be considered "comparable" per MOS:NUM with the rest of the records. I will allow other reviewers to comment on this.
  • "Five of the Cubs Opening Day" - Cubs', and remove "of the", it's unnecessary and becomes wordy
  • I would re-order the names of the HoFers to have the unlinked names first, since they have already been introduced.
  • "In addition," - I like Additionally better here, but that may just be personal preference
  • "300 game winner" - 300-game
  • I don't really think that it's necessary to mention Mordecai Brown at all; as he never made an Opening Day start, he's unrelated to the topic. If the Phillies keep going for the next several years and Cole Hamels never makes an Opening Day start for them (he never has, and probably won't next year), he wouldn't be mentioned in that article.
  • "and the Cubs won both those Opening Day games" - both of those
  • In the Key, table headers should be bold:
    • Bold "Season"
    • Bold "Location"
    • Bold "Final Score"
  • Superscript daggers in the table to reduce visual crowding.
  • Toolbox: Links work, no dabs, alt text exists. I won't comment on its quality, only its existence. I know that someone who can't see the pictures likely doesn't know what a Cubs uniform looks like, though.

Hope these comments help. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 13:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • Thank you for your comments. I think they were very helpful. I addressed all but the following:
    1. I fixed the typo in "one", but I left the numbers spelled out for now. I am not sure either whether these would be considered "comparable" records, so I left as is for now, and if other reviewers want me to switch to numerals that will be easy enough.
    2. I left the "In addition". That sounds more correct to me.
    3. I left in the Mordecai Brown comment for now. I am curious to see what other reviewers think. I agree it is not exactly necessary, but when I was creating this list Brown's absence was the item that I found most surprising. I agree that if Cole Hamels never makes an Opening Day start for the Phillies that will not be worth mentioning in the Phillies article, but if he ever makes the Hall of Fame as a Phillie without having made an Opnening Day start, that might become worthy of mention. Rlendog (talk) 02:49, 23 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Based on your and the other comments, I have removed the Brown reference. Rlendog (talk) 22:29, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved comments from NMajdan
Comments
  • Ref 5 appears to have moved. Can you locate an alternate source, locate the new location for this source, or find an archive of this source?
  • Please explain the reasoning for the inclusion of Mordecai Brown in this article. He was never an Opening Day pitcher, so I don't know why he is mentioned in the lead and why he has an image (removing him would also remove the requirement for the reference in my previous bullet).

—NMajdan•talk 15:16, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • I included Brown because the fact that he was not an Opening Day starting pitcher is quite unusual given that he was a Hall of Fame starting pitcher who spent most of his career with the Cubs and was elected to the HOF as a Cub (the latter is the only piece the Ref 5 is needed to support, although I can probably find an alternate source for Brown's HOF team). Most pitchers in a similar situation have many Opening Day starts - i.e., Jenkins/Cubs, Seaver/Mets, Marichal/Giants, Hubbell/Giants, Mathewson/Giants, Johnson/Senators, etc. Sandy Koufax is one exception but even he had one Opening Day start for the Dodgers. So it seemed noteworthy to mention that Brown never did make an Opening Day start for the Cubs. But now you and KV5 have opposed including this, so if there are more comments like this I will take it out. Rlendog (talk) 16:05, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I didn't even read KV's review either. I guess I just don't see the average reader thinking, "Well, where's Mordecai Brown?"—NMajdan•talk 17:06, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Based on your and the other comments, I have removed the Brown reference. Rlendog (talk) 22:29, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, pending the resolution of the image issue mentioned by Giants2008.—NMajdan•talk 20:02, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 17:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • Agree with the other reviewers on Three Finger Brown. At the very least, there's no reason for a picture of him, considering we have free photos of pitchers who did make Opening Day starts.
  • "They have also had an Opening Day record of six wins, one loss and one tie at their other home ball parks". Remove "also", as it really doesn't work that well with the preceding sentence.
  • Are non-sports fans going to understand what an away game is? That might require some further explanation (is there an appropriate wikilink?).
  • "In addition, 300-game winner Greg Maddux was the Cubs Opening Day starting pitcher in 1992." Apostrophe at end of Cubs.
  • Same goes for "Overall was the Cubs Opening Day starting pitcher both seasons".
  • Decapitalize second word of Final Score header.
  • For the Clark Griffith and Al Spaulding photos, there is no proof that they were published before 1923, the standard required by their given PD templates. They were created before then, but that doesn't mean they were published. Without proof that they were, I recommend removing them.
  • The John Clarkson photo links to a home page for Chicago Daily News pictures on the Library of Congress website. A search leads to this photo, but the current link is inconvienient for those who want to verify the PD status. Is a direct link to the photo page possible? Giants2008 (27 and counting) 16:37, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you for your comments. I addressed the prose comments, including removing the Mordecai Brown item, that all the reviewers seem to think is unnecessary. I removed the problematic photos, although hopefully when the HOF site is back up there will be proof that the Spalding image is ok. I also added an image of Fred Goldsmith to replace the removed images, and I added a link to the Clarkson image that I hope addresses your concerns. Rlendog (talk) 22:27, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To add one note on the new Fred Goldsmith photo, the licensing is incorrect. The uploader couldn't have placed this into the public domain, unless she was around in the late 1880s and took the photo (unlikely). This image was published before 1923, so it should have that template instead, and the source should mention the newspaper. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 17:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how this works. The licensing information on Commons states "F. E. Goldsmith is Frederick Elroy Goldsmith. This is a scan of this paper pubishing own by Fred's Great Great Granddaughter : Susan L. [Gold]Smith." And apparently Susan Smith, who claims to own the publishing rights, was the uploader. In the U.S. it is obviously out of copyright, but in other jurisdictions (which may be relevant on Commons) that may not be the case. So if this is still a problem I am not sure how to best resolve it. The easy way would be to remove the picture from the article, which is fine since it is not essential. Another way would be to upload the picture from Commons to Wikipedia under a different licensing template, but I am not sure how to do that and I am not sure if we are supposed to copy media that is already on Commons onto Wikipedia. Rlendog (talk) 01:50, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure about this, but I think the U.S. status is the most relevant on Commons for a photo from the U.S. Wasn't aware that the uploader was apparently related to Goldsmith, and as I said above, the picture was clearly published before 1923 (common standard for PD in U.S.) anyway. With that in mind, I see no need to remove the image, and I'm pretty sure we shouldn't have the same image on Wikipedia and Commons (again not 100% sure). Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:09, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, though with areservation on the image. I'd at least like to know where the image really was from (clearly from a newspaper; I think it's from The Sporting News but that's not verifiable unless someone has archive access). Wizardman 18:16, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Commons link states the sketch is from "The Official Baseball Record". As per my reply to Giants2008, I don't have a problem removing the image if it is problematic, but I don't think it is and it is always nice to see what some of these old-time, mostly forgotten players looked like. Rlendog (talk) 02:29, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • My suggestion would be to add the publication name and date (visible in the photo) to the image description on Commons. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:04, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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