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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Calgary Flames draft picks/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by User:Scorpion0422 20:31, 29 November 2008 [1].

List of Calgary Flames draft picks

edit

previous FLC (20:37, 2 September 2008)

I am resubmitting this list as a featured candidate after spending some time reworking its layout following comments at the first FLC. I believe that this time, the list is ready for featured status, as it is complete, well laid out, factually accurate and cited, and has plenty of relevant images. All comments will be addresed. Thanks, Resolute 23:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I went just went quickly through the article, I came up with these comments that should lead to a Withdrawal of this nomination.

-- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24[c] 00:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Not at all sure why this nomination should be withdrawn. Really, your concerns are fairly simple to address, albeit somewhat time consuming. I'm adding the Sort template, and the article was originally called Calgary Flames draft history. It was moved to List of... to match naming conventions agreed to by the hockey project. As far as listing trades, that simply is not practical for 30 years of a draft that has averaged 10 rounds. I'd have to look it up (using a non-reliable source), but I'd bet the Flames have easily made 50-100 trades involving draft picks in their history. That simply is not practical to list. Resolute 05:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think putting up trades related to how some draft picks were taken are very practical to list. -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24[c] 06:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Two problems I see: First, since it is impractical to list all, I am left with picking and choosing which trades to mention. That introduces WP:POV concerns. Second, this is a list of draft picks, not a complete draft history. Where listing trades works for a very small draft like that the NBA holds, it does not for a larger draft like the NHL. Similarly, a full list of draft picks, which works here, would be completely impossible for baseball. Probably the most I could reasonably do is expand on the most recent draft in the lead, adding mention of trades that occurred for that draft. Resolute 16:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Killervogel5
Comments

I certainly will not be so swift as to call for immediate withdrawal, but I do see several issues which need to be addressed.

  • "The franchise was founded in 1972 as the Atlanta Flames, and until 1979, it drafted as the Atlanta Flames. The team relocated to Calgary, Alberta, Canada in 1980." - needs ref.
  • Fixed.
  • "Between 1986 and 1994, the NHL also held a Supplemental Draft for college players who were otherwise not eligible for the entry draft." - needs ref.
  • Working on it. I can cite the existence of the Supplemental Draft easily enough, but the reasoning for it has proven surprisingly difficult. Give me a day or so on this one.
  • Every row in a sortable table must be able to stand alone, so don't link only the first occurrence, especially with years. Every one should be linked. Same goes for teams that occur more than once.
  • lol, and in the past overlinking was argued to be a problem. Go figure. I'll be correcting this.
  • Sorting isn't always exactly right. When you sort by points, etc., the goalies don't sort together (that's a big problem), and colspans really mess up the sorting too.
  • This will present a challenge, yes. I'll try to work on a solution, but the fact that goaltenders use entirely different statistics, along with the fact that I can't really separate them out will make fixing this difficult.
  • Names need to sort by last name, not first, so use the sort or sortname templates.
  • Sortname seemed to want to force all items into links, which is why I hadn't used it. Shoulda realized there would be a simpler template available in Sort. There's always another template.
  • The supplemental picks sort before the #1 picks. They should sort to the bottom.
  • Fixed with the addition of the sort template
  • The key doesn't match the table (P vs. Pts).
  • oops, fixed.
  • Don't use em-dashes in the notes column. Put years or other notes in parentheses instead. Example: HHOF (2007). Ret (#2; STL) or #2 Ret (STL).
  • Changed

At the moment, I reluctantly oppose. My reluctance stems from the fact that I really like the visual elements of the list, but I cannot support a list with so many shortcomings right now. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 01:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. I've completed adding proper sorting function for the players, fixed how the Supplemental Draft picks sort, and managed to push the goalie stats out of the way when other stats are sorted descending. I believe I have addressed all of your concerns, save the reasoning behind the Supplemental draft, which I am searching for a ref. Resolute 00:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've simplified the statement on the Supplemental Draft and sourced its existence, as it is proving surprisingly difficult to find an online explanation of the reasoning behind the draft. I'll have to head to the library to check some old newspapers for a source, but that will be a few days yet. In the meantime, I hope this suffices, and I believe I have at least tried to address all concerns all three reviewers thus far have expressed. Resolute 01:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding the sorting, when you sort by Nationality and Games Played, there are still some issues. There are a chunk of players at the bottom that are still out of order. I haven't tested all columns, but there may be other issues. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 00:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've fixed the sorting by nationality - whomever added the sort template to the flags in the entry draft table did not do so for the supplemental draft table, which I did not notice when I merged the two. I've had no problems at all sorting by GP, A, Pts or PIM. There was an odd intermittant issue with the G column, but I believe I have resolved that with yet more sort templates. Resolute 16:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try sorting by points, assists, PIM, etc. The sorting doesn't work. The players with "0" are randomly scattered about throughout the blank spaces (which can be remedied by setting blank spaces to sort as negative 1), and the goalie stats sort randomly in that portion as well. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 13:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can do that, however this would greatly increase the size of the article for little to no benefit. I'm not sure a 100k article size with 50k of that being sort templates is ideal. I'll see what I can do for this, however. Resolute 16:36, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done, and it only added about 10k to the chart size. The goalie stats seem to all be sticking together towards the end fo the numbered columns. Hopefully this resolves these sorting issues... I don't think the sort template ever really envisioned such a complicated table, heh. Resolute 20:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've tried sorting the numbers in every combination I can think of in both IE and Firefox and have not been able to duplicate it. I have seen that happen before, but it seems to be very infrequent at most, and more than likely a bug with the sorting templates themselves than anything else. Resolute 04:25, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
←I sorted by assists (only 1 click), and the numbers are still sorting in logical order rather than numerical. That doesn't help anyone but a computer. I tried it at work on IE and at home on Firefox, and it's the same both places. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 13:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments by Chrishomingtang
  • Oppose per above editors
    • The ref section looks like a mess. Should organize it into general and specific references like List of first overall NBA draft picks
    • The first paragraph of the lead has no reference:
      • The franchise was founded in 1972 as the Atlanta Flames, and until 1979, it drafted as the Atlanta Flames. need reference
      • The team relocated to Calgary, Alberta, Canada in 1980. need reference
      • the Flames have selected a total of 306 players, 113 of whom have played at least one game in the NHL. need reference

—Chris! ct 02:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • lol! You guys aren't making this easy! Good... I like a challenge. I'll address your comments first, as they are the easiest fixed. Not sure why I didn't copy the reference for the team relocation history over, as the paragraph is a copy of the other lists. Anyway, that's been corrected. I've split the references into general and specific, though I wouldn't characterize the original format as "a mess" myself, but that's just me.;) Now, onto the comments above... Resolute 04:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The list is too wide on a standard resolution monitor, so the images are lined up to the right with white space to the left and the list starts below the images. Doesn't look very good unless you have a widescreen. —Krm500 (Communicate!) 00:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What resolution and browser are you running? I've checked on a 22" widescreen, 19" 4x3 and a 14.1 laptop screen in both Firefox and IE and don't see any problems. Resolute 16:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm, playing around a bit, I can see what you are talking about. But this only seems to happen at a smaller resolution when the chart is unable to shrink any further to fit the images. Given there is no %width parameter in the image syntax, there isn't any great way for me to fix this for you, aside from forcing the images even smaller than 150px. I've gone down to 130px to help reduce the odds of this happening, but I don't really want to go any smaller, as it begins to degrade the quality for monitors on higher resolutions. Hope this helps. Resolute 17:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I my self have no problem with it since I have a widescreen monitor, but I usually construct and asses lists based on 1024x768 resolution since it is the most common resolution world wide. You managed to squeeze it in now, good work. —Krm500 (Communicate!) 01:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by SatyrTN
  • The sortability of the "Notes" column is not necessary. Put 'class="unsortable"' in the attributes of the header field to remove.
  • Probably not a bad idea.
  • The sortability of the "Team (League)" column is suspect. I can't sort by league, only by team. And the team names are often "City Teamname (League)" which means I'm really sorting by city. I don't see the usefulness.
  • I had been considering this, and was thinking of moving the league into its own column.
  • The "Rnd" column needs to make use of the {{sort}} function, since right now "10" is coming before "2".
  • I have not been able to duplicate this problem in that column. Unfortunately, it seems that I am going to have to wrap every single cell in a sort template as a result of limitations with the template itself.
  • I'm not sure how to fix this, but there's no way to get back to the initial sort order. Try sorting by a couple different columns, then go back to year. Actually, I think I *do* know a way - use the {{sort}} function on the "Year" column with a combination of year-rnd-pick. So Denis Cyr's "Year" entry would be {{sort|1980-01-13|[[1980 NHL Entry Draft|1980]]}}.
  • Reload the page, I guess. I am not aware of any reset option for a sorted table, and the documentation on the templates offer nothing.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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