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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of CZW World Heavyweight Champions/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Scorpion0422 21:28, 23 June 2009 [1].

List of CZW World Heavyweight Champions

edit
Nominator(s): WillC 00:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

I am nominating this for featured list because... I feel it meets the criteria. This list was once an FL under the CZW World Heavyweight Championship. Bad sourcing and prose problems caused it to be delisted. Having noticed this, I looked for new sources and expanded the lead and other sections into a list. I was not the user who got the title to FL the first time, but I hope to be the second time. The main article has also been expanded.WillC 00:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008
Comments –

Support – My comments have all been taken care of, and so have most of Dabomb's. The lone exception is the source query, which I posted a note about below. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
  • "The championship has been defended and lost in countries other" "defended and lost" seems wordy. Perhaps "has been contested"?
  • Link something to Wrestling weight classes, please.
  • "between different wrestlers involved in pre-existing " Consider the opposite: "...between identical wrestlers..."? This should be fixed in your previous FLs also.
  • "All title changes happen at live events, which are released on DVD, with only a handful of exceptions"-->All title changes happen at live events, which are usually released on DVD make this change in your previous FLs as well
  • Em dashes (—) in the blank table cells. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:34, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose
Unresolved comments from Crzycheetah

I don't think you needed to split this one. The main article is barely start-class, yet it's expanded as much as it could. I highly suggest merging this table with the main article and nominate again. --Crzycheetah 06:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • The main artice can be expanded more. I just didn't look for alot of information. The main article should be about the championship, not the wrestlers who held the championship in my opinion.--WillC 07:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • What else can you add? All the info that is currently mentioned in the main article is needed here, as well. See Calder Memorial Trophy for an example, where there's the lead section and the History section that explains everything a reader needs to know. The way you're using, a reader needs to go back and forth between this list and the main article. That's why I believe we need to merge this list into the main article to make things more comfortable for readers.--Crzycheetah 01:46, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • There is no limit of characters at GAN so with third party sites added to the CZW Title it could become a GA. This list also passes the criteria for a stand alone list. Plus this list is long enough as is, and WP:PW agreed that a list of champions can be broken off at 10 champions, as long as the main championship article is expanded, which it has.--WillC 01:54, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(→)*Comments I am going to comment on this list anyway

    • Why is there a subsection "Reigns"? I don't see any other subsections or any text after the "title history" section. Maybe you meant "List of combined reigns" to be a subsection instead?
      • I usually have a names section but since this title had no other names mentioned in the sources I didn't have one. I left the subsection in there just to give a quick directory to where the list is at. I'll remove it if you wish?--WillC 02:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Numbers in bold indicate that a reign is current and changes daily" - I don't see any bold numbers
    • Please consider WP:98WIDE, the width of the table should be no higher than 98%.
    • The names should be left-aligned rather than centered.
      • It was suggested on a previous FLC of mine that they should be centered since everything else is centered.--WillC 02:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Usually, text should be left-aligned and numbers centered. I don't know what you last nom. was, but I just checked 3 pro wrestling WP:FL's and all have their names left-aligned.--Crzycheetah 03:06, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Check User:Wrestlinglover/Awards and Accomplishments. Most of the FLs are out of date. The most recent ones have been by me and another user. Some are done by preference. I use to do mine based on the other FLs but was told differently and grown foundly of this format. So I guess it is my preference now.--WillC 03:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • I don't think preference matters in this case. We all follow the preference of professional writing. In professional writing, text is always left aligned at all times. You can check any newspaper or magazine that is respectable. Centered text is for the fan sites. Last time I checked, Wikipedia is not a fansite.--Crzycheetah 05:29, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • Yes, but is there a rule about it? I don't think it should be changed since I feel with them centered, it looks better.--WillC 05:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                • Centered text may look beautiful and pretty, but it hurts readability. With centered text, your eyes always work to find the starting point of the word. After a while headaches start coming and going. There's a reason why whenever you type a word in Excel, the deafault alignment is left.--Crzycheetah 06:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                • I've never had a problem come up about the center text till now. Maybe once before but I believe that was "why is everything centered" but that was someone's perfence to have one of the columns right aligned. Didn't stop them from feeling it passed the criteria though. Maybe it is just you in all honesty.--WillC 07:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The "wrestlers" column is too wide, while the "location" column is too narrow.
    • You have "N/A" under "Events" for # 17 and 18, but at the same time in the "notes" column it's mentioned that the event was the Irish Whip Wrestling event. It's very confusing.
    • What are the citation #2 and 3 for? I can easily check the info from the general references. Am I missing some thing here?

--Crzycheetah 02:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • My primary concern is the lack of background info, which can be achieved by merging the list into the main article.
    • My secondary concern is the centered text mainly in the "Name" column that should be left-aligned for easier reading.

--Crzycheetah 01:49, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

      • Well this one passes the criertia for a stand alone article and nearly the same info is mentioned in both articles so I don't see the lack of background comes into play.--WillC 02:48, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from SRE.K.A.L.24

Comments from -- SRE.K.A.L.24[c]

-- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 00:27, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, please read people's boxes on the top of their talk pages, as I'm trying my best to not get any comments on my talk page that are "reminders", since I always watch the FLCs I comment on. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

cautious support

Resolved comments from MPJ-DK
Comments –;;General
  • Why shouldn't it be? I'd say it falls under one of the following categories listed on the page "Feature-length films and documentaries"/"Multi-episode television serials"/"Plays"/"Television series" - So why should wrestling shows not be? MPJ-DK (talk) 07:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well all you mentioned above are available on free television at some point or another. Now a PPV may at some point but I've never heard one ever being shown in full length on free television nor have I heard of a live event sold on DVD aired on free tv.--WillC 08:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're using an argument that's irrelevant, it doesn't matter if it's on "free tv" or not, the italics rules do not even mention that at all. It falls under the same general sort of product as I listed and thus should be italizied just like they are, PPVs should actually ALSO be italizied according to WP:ITALICS. MPJ-DK (talk) 11:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • That was one thing I had to say. That wasn't the reason. You asked why, that was the first thing that popped in my mind. I wrote that at 3 or 4 am since I can't sleep. So I'm not all here. None you said does live events or ppvs fall under. TV series, the closest one that events may fall under. They aren't films, they aren't documentaries, they aren't plays though that is somewhat arguable, and they aren't tv series; I somewhat said how they aren't tv series.--WillC 12:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shouldn't all the shows link to "House Shows"? they happen to be taped for DVD but they're not a specific television show, PPV or large annual event are they?
  • I thought you meant for prose, plus the house show link isn't really proper. The event isn't seen just by those in attendance. So I wasn't sure if it works to link the event title. Your opinion a bit more on why. I'm willing to do it, just unsure.--WillC 08:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alright, though if you wish, since this is why I like to discuss all things first, I'll add event after each one and link it to house show? I agree with using the link, just thought it wasn't fitting.--WillC 12:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question - why are so many columns centered? that's inconsistent with any other Wrestling FL not done by you. I agree with User:Crzycheetah, it's not the standard way for text in tables.
  • I was told it makes it better to see the text. Check the ROH Champions FLC. Plus I tend to like it better.--WillC 00:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Addition: I've checked several recent FLs on other subjects, they do not have centered text - in other words from what I can see your format falls outside both the pro wrestling MOS and the way 99% of FLs are. It should be changed to left align.MPJ-DK (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well all lists tend to be different. Most of the project's FLs are either out of date or done by preference. I did mine like all the others until I was told center would be better. Changed it and grown fond of this format.--WillC 00:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Makes it better to see the text" - I disagree with that. Yes one person said "Center it", now at least 3 people, the wrestling MOS and general rules on writing say the opposite, that person seems outvoted. "I like it", cannot take that seriously, it's not consistent with the Featured Lists on wrestling nor it's MOS. Comment & oppose of the format still stands. MPJ-DK (talk) 07:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hate to tell you, but most of the wrestling MoS was not written on consensus. The current version I know of was written mostly by Truco and I don't remember a discussion done on sorting, lists, etc. Plus I like it nor I don't like it wouldn't be a deal break on either end. You don't like it is an opinion and I like it is an opinion. I don't know if there is a rule on which to do. So I'm not sure what to do here. If there was a rule against it, I would change it. But otherwise I put alot of effort in the change of format plus I tend to still like it so I would rather not change it. Opinion?--WillC 08:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Unindet for easier readability) I know perfectly well that WP:PW generally can't come to agreement on most anything, but what everyone who's ever produced a championship list (and you infact up until recently) have agreed on is that the text is left aligned - it's consistent and there has not been any good argument made to change it. I did not say "I didn't like it", I said "it's harder to read", "It's not consistent with other FLs", "It's not consistent with title lists" and "it's not in the MOS". You keep countering with "but I like it", fine - you like it, I get it. No wonder no consensus can be reached when "I like it" is your reason for not following the generally accepted standard. MPJ-DK (talk) 11:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You seem a bit pissed. Anyway, I'm stating my stance on why I do not wish to change it. There are also other reasons. Most of the other lists are not sorted fully, are poorly sourced, the format is wrong, and do not pass the current FL criteria. Saying well this one is not the same as those are is like saying after and before. The standard on tables is to go left and no one thought to change it so that was the consensus. It was never considered if that format was better or not; that I know of. Consensus can also change. I'm willing to change it, just for you to know. But I don't see the reason why. Changing to an out of date format is not what I believe is best for the article.--WillC 12:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are there specific citations for champions #23 and #25 only? Are they not covered by the general references? I also personally think that the annual show archive should not be under general but cited in the line it's referenced. It is after all not a source for the general page, just for the events that take place that one year.
  • Establish notability? You randomly source two title changes by linking it to show recaps to establish notability? That just verifies dates of change. It's just so random that it stands out like a sore thumb but alright. You miss the point, they're not "general sources", they're specific sources for a limited section of the article.MPJ-DK (talk) 07:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've never read the MoS, AAD kind of stops me from getting passed one page and even that is hard. Plus those two are the only ones I found that the title changed at from PWTorch and Slam didn't have a one I found, though I may have missed one or two on both sites, maybe even more.--WillC 08:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have ADD so I've never read the MoS. I don't know the point of the general and specific sections because of that. I follow other's advice, so my info may be wrong and it may be correct half the time. It took me a year before I got an opinion on what may be right and what may be wrong.--WillC 12:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no source for what CZW considers a "Heavyweight" or even if they have a weightlimit defined for the title.
Not stating they have one. Just stating what a heavyweight usually is in wrestling. An interesting note.--WillC 00:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • An interesting note that states a very specific rule, one that has not ever been relevant to heavyweight titles in pro wrestling like ever and a very specific weight limit that again I have not officially seen stated. MPJ-DK (talk) 07:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The claim of who is under the weightlimit is supported by a source that does not mention it at all, nor does it mention the weight of the champion.
  • Solie.org - I was under the impression it was only reliable if they state that the "Pro Wrestling Title Histories" book was one of their sources, this one does not state that and most of the reigns happen after the last "Pro Wrestling Title Histories" was published.
  • You tell me what makes it reliable, all the page states are the names of the people who compile the list, not how they're compiled, fact checked etc. It may as well say "List complied by MPJ-DK" but that doesn't confirm whether I'm a reliable source or not. MPJ-DK (talk) 07:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It should state how they compile their champions articles. I'm never sure how to prove fact checking. Not my thing. Mostly people tell me what is reliable and I go along or I find it used in other FLs and use it. Sorry I can't answer this. I believe there is something about getting info from the companies and dvds or something along those lines in there. I started reading it and never got through it. Probably should have.--WillC 08:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes it should state how they're compiled, "Mr. X sent it in" does not state how Mr. X compiled it though, there is no defined editorial process in place, heck it sounds like the site just takes the submissions in good faith. MPJ-DK (talk) 11:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • We do the same is all I have to say besides it is used in other FLs. I don't know if it is reliable or not. It seems that it has been agreed upon that it is reliable enough to use.--WillC 12:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not really pleased with how many primary sources are used, only 3 non-primary sources are listed, one I'm not convinced is reliable and the other two mention a specific title change, 2 out of 30. I would think Feature Lists would need to be better sourced than that.
  • Why is the "company site always best to use"?? I'd think on the contrary, the company site should only be used as a last resort - it's biased and being a wrestling company not above "working" fans. I'm not saying they're wrong, I'd just like to see more 3rd party sources on Featured Lists. MPJ-DK (talk) 07:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since it is a primary source it is best to source something they own. I agree it is not the most truthful since all companies want to rewrite their history. But this is still an indy company and third party sources are hard to come by. With PWTorch in there and Slam Sports, etc having other reports, just none that regard any events this title changed at. If cagematch.net was proven reliable, I would use it.--WillC 08:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • (unindent) primary sources are allowed on wikipedia, they don't have to be removed as such but it's not a good thing when the overwhelming majority of the sources are primary it becomes a bit of a problem. You even admit that the company is not the most reliable source. Your argument is "I can use an unreliable source for FL because no reliable sources exist", my counter is "If there are no reliable sources then it cannot be a Featured List". MPJ-DK (talk) 11:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not saying it is an unreliable source. All sources have a bit of incorrectness within them. I'm saying that promotion's tend to rewrite history. I don't like using multiple primary sources and I've talked about this before.--WillC 12:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorting
  • Super Dragon should not sort by Dragon but by Super - it's not a proper name with first and last name
  • Justice Pain sort by Justice, not Pain
  • the Messiah - sort by Messiah, not the.
Combined reigns
  • Key to explain "+" is missing
  • I would but what would be the point if they aren't going to be used until the second section. All in the first table are used in the first section while only one is used again later. It seems mentioning it twice is redundant.--WillC 12:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorting as above.
Sorry can't support just yet. (You don't have to drop me a comment, I'm watching this page) MPJ-DK (talk) 11:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know what my replies would have to do with anything. It is mainly if it passes the criteria, which I only see it violates maybe two at most of. Most of the problems are debatable IMO. But these are your observations so I'm willing to continue. I await your replies -Will.--WillC 08:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well considering you don't seem willing to change the format of the show titles in face of policy, the formatting of text in cells for no other reason that like, the specific sources put as general, that I'm not convinced solie.org is reliable and you think it's okay for over 90% of the sources to be primary sources, your replies have everything to do with my opposition I'm afraid. MPJ-DK (talk) 11:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm willing to change anything, but I disagree with some of the changes. The italics I do not believe are policy, I've been told only tv shows should be italics and not PPvs. I feel live events are just like PPVs. Plus like has somewhat to do with it, but I see no policy regrading it other than me hearing preference. I've stated around two of three times, if a policy was shown that said they should be left aligned, I would change it right away. I also feel the only reason you want it changed is preference as well. I somewhat feel solie is reliable and has been used in multiple FLs. I'll remove it though it sources minor things seeing as the promotion's site is also there and it is only a back up. Plus there is nothing wrong with using mainly primary sources. There are two other third party sources within the article to establish notability and since you are also from the project you know CZW is reliable how hard it is to find sites regarding indy promotions. Plus per the wrestling MoS it says that the promotion's website is the best one to use. I'm willing to change anything to get your oppose changed to a support, but if I feel it doesn't improve the article, then I probably will not comply. I will discuss any changes as well so I understand the reason too and to explain to others why it was changed. I don't mean to be difficult since I kind of feel I'm seeming like that. But I'm trying to get this to become an FL plus I want it to be the best it can since there are very few good indy articles.--WillC 12:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alright breakdown time
  • Italics, skip the shows it's a minor thing really. In the tag article I think you need either quotation marks or italics for team names to make it clear "This is their team name".
  • Alignment - well if that's all we end up disagreeing on then I can live with that.
  • Solie.org's "Reliability" - Considering that Solies & CZW's own site state the exact same data from the looks of it (I didn't compare every single entry) it can be left in and apparently used in other FLs I'll withdraw my objection.
  • I think we'll have to disagree on the use of primary sources, they're okay up to a degree IMO. But I do definitly know how much of a pain it can be to find reliable wrestling sources and well I'll remain neutral on that instead of oppose on that front.MPJ-DK (talk) 12:45, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks you for the support. Even people who seem to be having the same abbjective tend to disagree and it was bound to happen sometime or another. I understand all your opposes on the format, just for you to know. I also agree on the Solie and CZW site sourcing. I don't like using alot of primary sources, but all I got at the moment. I'm unsure of Solie's reliability but I don't know how to check that so I'm not sure. Used in other wrestling FLs so I use it.--WillC 13:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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