Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Armenian Olympic medalists/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by NapHit 21:40, 1 October 2012 [1].

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List of Armenian Olympic medalists

List of Armenian Olympic medalists (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured list candidates/List of Armenian Olympic medalists/archive1

Nominator(s): Yerevanci (talk) 22:27, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I think that the list is pretty much ready to be featured on the main page and is really interesting in its own way, because as I know this will be the first list of Olympic medalists of a certain ethnic group, not country. Yerevanci (talk) 22:27, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Resolved comments from TBrandley (talk) 20:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments Per WP:WIAFL and WP:LEDE, the article should contain three detailed paragraphs for the lede. See List of Awake episodes as an example. Done! Merged history into lead section. "This article is about the history of ethnic Armenian athletes at the Olympics." is not needed. Replace. Removed! "Varazdat (Varasdates)" What's Varasdates. Confusing for a person not familiar with the topic Added King of Armenia before his name. "(pugilat)"? removed! 286-342. - should be an en-dash –, as per WP:DASH done! History's paragraphs look very small. Any way of merging? What do you mean by merging photos? Remove those flags in the table, as per MOS:FLAG Done, but are you sure about that? Take a look at Ballon d'Or. It includes flags for clubs and players. The countries should be linked to the team, not country itself. Olympic team is where they should be linked, for the tables Done No references are cited in the Medalists section. See WP:RS and WP:CITE. Please add. Don't "shout" in reference titles, as seen in reference 1 Done! Ref. 7 has the publisher in capitals. Why? Done! There is an external links section, with no external links. Add some, or remove that section completely Removed!! And, there still is much more. For now, that's it though. TBrandley 15:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

• Interesting list but: the table needs a ref for each entry showing that he is considered of Armenian origin (i.e. a name ending in -ian is not enough for wikipedia to confirm his or her enthnicity) and another one to show that he actually won the medal listed. There also needs to be a reference showing that this is a complete list (i.e. not just wp:or). Nergaal (talk) 16:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Should the references be in a separate column, or just next to their names?--Yerevanci (talk) 17:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

How you have it now is fine. I would put the footnotes into the ref column. However, most of the current references still don't point to the fact that the athletes are or Armenian descent. Also, make sure that the Russian titles are translated. Nergaal (talk) 00:22, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Please take a look at the bottom of the page. Under the references section there is a subsection "General". That book was used in making of the list and I don't think that separate sources are needed to prove the Armenianness of each individual athlete again. --Yerevanci (talk) 01:01, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

That should be clearly discussed in the intro. Also, how reliable is the source? Also, it might be wise to move the second paragraph to a separate section. Nergaal (talk) 01:59, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I don't see anything wrong with that source. And what do you mean by saying it should be discussed in the intro?

Where do you suggest to move the second paragraph? I do think it's wise to move it, but I can't think of a place. Or I can simply delete that paragraph, because it's about the Ancient Olympics, while the article is more about the Modern Olympics. I don't know. It looks interesting to me and it might be interesting to other readers as well. --Yerevanci (talk) 02:25, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Pretty solid; it's good. TBrandley 04:16, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

• Weak oppose I expected to see only people who competed for Armenia, not who are of Armenian origin, else this is original research. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 11:02, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

That's the point of this article. It clearly states that "due to historical and political reasons, only the small portion of Armenian athletes have competed for Armenia". There is a source at the bottom under the title General references which was used for creating the list. How is that original research?

If you expected to see the list of Olympic medalists for Armenia, then you go to Armenia at the Olympics and scroll down to List of Medalists. --Yerevanci (talk) 16:57, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I suggest adding a hatnote for clarity. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 17:19, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Would this be appropriate: This article is about ethnic Armenian Olympic medalists. For the list of Olympic medalists for Armenia see Armenia at the Olympics#List of medalists?--Yerevanci (talk) 17:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is better. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 17:52, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Regarding this post, I think the article gives too much weight to the ancient period instead of the recent times. For example, you could write when was the first Armenian committee establised. You state that many do not compete for Armenia "because of the economic crisis in 1990s", but what about in the 21st century? Perhaps mention the reason. I will re-review the list when I have the time. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 11:11, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I will add about the National Olympic Committee.

Please read the rest of that sentecne. It says athletes from Armenia who migrated because of the economic crisis in 1990s. It includes athletes in 21st century that compete for other countries. For example Arsen Galstyan, who won a gold medal in judo at London Olympics few weeks ago, was born in Armenia in 1989 and his left Armenia in mid 1990s. The economic crisis included lack of electricity for about 2 years and gas for more than 5 years. The borders with Turkey and Azerbaijan are closed since then, because of the Nagorno-Karabakh War. Estimates say that about 0.6-1 million people left Armenia in 1990s. Another example is David Ayrapetyan, a bronze medalist of London Games in boxing. He was born in Baku, Azerbaijan. In 1990 after a pogrom about 200,000 Armenians left the city. His family migrated to Armenia, but soon left for Russia.--Yerevanci (talk) 23:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:58, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments "Armenian Kings Varazdat" -> "Armenian kings Varazdat". fixed "First Armenians to participate " -> "The first Armenians.." fixed You link Ancient Olympic Games, but not Modern, why? fixed "Both competed in athletics in 1912 Stockholm Games" -> "Both competed in athletics at the 1912 Stockholm Games" fixed "First Armenian to win a" -> "The first..." fixed "diving in 1920 Antwerp Games" -> "at the 1920" fixed Why not link "1992 Barcelona Games "? fixed And Unified team? fixed " a IOC member " spell it out before you abbreviate it. fixed "Since 1994 Winter Olympics " -> "Since the..." and why not link it? both fixed "including some athletes from Armenia who " no need to relink Armenia. fixed " Armenia participates separately, but still some Armenian athletes compete under foreign flags, including some athletes from Armenia who ..." not engaging prose at all, you repeat Armenia three times in one sentence. kind of fixed "in Moses of Chorene's History of Armenia (3.40). Since " what does (3.40) mean? fixed "from 374-78" en-dash needed here. fixed "victory in the 360's" no apostrophe. fixed "in display " -> "on display". fixed "is recorded in Moses of Chorene's History of Armenia" and "chronicled by the Armenian historian Moses of Khoren in his History of Armenia". Repetitive and no need to relink both author and work the second time around if you insist on repeating the phrase. fixed Ref column doesn't need to be sortable. fixed Typically lists of names which are sortable, sort by the surname, using the {{sortname}} template. Is there a reason why this list shouldn't do that? done "Olympics" isn't a country I'm aware of... fixed Some weight categories are capitalised (e.g. Men's Half Middleweight) others aren't (e.g. Men's middleweight). Be consistent. fixed Tables need row and col scopes per MOS:DTT for accessibility. can you explain that? Ref 3, no need to SHOUT. fixed Is databaseOlympics a reliable source? I think it is, because it's widely used on Wikipedia for athletes that are Olympic medalists. Ref 75 has a raw URL. fixed The Rambling Man (talk) 11:52, 30 August 2012 (UTC) Why is one row of the By country table a different colour? shouldn't Armenia be pointed out? I don't think so. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:54, 3 September 2012 (UTC) color removed Also, I have an important question for you. Do you think that country flags should be added to the country column before their names? I do think so, because in most lists flags are included in tables. --Yerevanci (talk) 00:55, 31 August 2012 (UTC) As long as you comply with WP:MOSFLAG, it's fine by me. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:54, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Oppose – Interesting idea for a list, but I see quite a few grammatical and formatting issues on top of the ones that have already been listed. The good news is that I think the list is fixable with some work. Most of what is below is simple to fix; the accessibility issues are more time-consuming than all of these, except for one source reliability concern.

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 02:10, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

*In the hatnote on top: "For athletes competed for Armenia". Surely "who" should go before "competed"? fixed The opening of the lead is a stubby one-paragraph sentence. I think the lead would be nicer if the sentence was merged with the following paragraph, leaving two decent-sized paragraphs. done "only the small portion of Armenian athletes have competed for Armenia." "the" → "a". fixed "became the first Armenian gold medalist of modern Olympics in 1952." Here, "the" should be added before "modern Olympics". fixed In the second photo caption, "the" should be added in the middle of "were first Armenians". fixed In Arsen Melikyan's entry, the hyphen in the event column should be an en dash instead. The same goes for David Ayrapetyan, Armen Nazaryan's 2000 entry, Arsen Julfalakyan, and Arsen Galstan. all fixed Disqualified athletes: Add "his" to "was stripped of medal". done The Winter Olympics table doesn't need sortability, because there is only one entry. fixed In reference 69, the date formatting of the access date should be made consistent with the other refs that spell out the month, day, and year. You could also switch all of the other refs to the formatting used here, but that's a lot more work that I don't recommend doing. fixed Ref 70 needs a publisher and access date. fixed Publisher of ref 72 (Rossiyskaya Gazeta) should be italicized. fixed Access date in ref 76 should be fully spelled out. fixed Titles of refs 64 and 74 have hyphens that should be en dashes instead. both fixed Giants2008 (Talk) 02:41, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

• The two photographs could use alt text.
  • added
    • I don't see it when I'm reading the article. Could you check that all of the formatting is correct? Giants2008 (Talk) 02:10, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
      • Seems like alt text doesn't go with double images.--Երևանցի _{ասելիք կա՞} 16:21, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
        • I've seen cases where double images had alt text for each image, so I know it's possible. Why don't you look at some of the lists at WP:FL, find one that has a double image with alt text for each image, and see how it's formatted? That way you can fix this and know what to do for the future. I'd tell you which article to look at, but I can't think of one that has a double image off the top of my head. Giants2008 (Talk) 19:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

• Reference 4 could use a page number to help make the citation more verifiable.
  • couldn't find the book online
• What makes databaseOlympics.com a reliable source? If you are choosing between that and Sports Reference, I believe the latter is more reliable.
  • The only reason I used databaseOlympics.com is because that website is widely used on Wikipedia
    • Just because something is used elsewhere doesn't make it reliable here. Those other articles may not have good reasons for using the source. Has data from the site been used in any major media publications, or have any publications recommended it as a good source of information about the Olympics? Giants2008 (Talk) 02:10, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
      • What do you suggest? I can't see any problem with the source.--Երևանցի _{ասելիք կա՞} 01:16, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
        • I suggest that it be replaced with a more reliable source, because I don't believe it is reliable enough for an FL. I suggested Sports Reference as one good alternative; maybe there are others. Giants2008 (Talk) 19:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
          • And what makes Sports Reference a better, more reliable source? --Երևանցի _{ասելիք կա՞} 20:13, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
            • It's passed stringent FAC source checks in the past, and it is operated by a parent group that runs other sports statistics web sites that have been declared reliable at FAC. To me, however, this is of secondary concern. Why should the site used in this article be considered a reliable source? We still don't have a good answer to that question, and without one I wouldn't consider it reliable. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:06, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
              • OK then. I have no problem with replacing databaseOlympics with SportsReference. All I want is a guarantee that after doing that I won't be asked to change it again. So, do you have any more complains about the article other than this? --Երևանցի _{ասելիք կա՞} 15:10, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not comfortable with the inclusion of post '92 athletes that competed for countries other than Armenia. The justification for this list is surely that those listed identify as Armenian, or in the case of Soviet era athletes, would most likely have competed for Armenia had the country been independent. Pre '92 athletes that didn't compete for the Soviet Union should be considered on a case-by-case basis: in these instances I accept that someone might have identified as Armenian, but competed for a country other than the Soviet Union because they were unwilling or unable to represent the USSR. —WFC— 14:47, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Please take a look at the "References" section. Under the title "general" there is a book that was used to prove the "Armenianness" of those atheletes.--Երևանցի _{ասելիք ունե՞ս} 22:21, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.