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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Boston Reds (1890–1891) all-time roster/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 07:12, 11 April 2009 [1].

Boston Reds (1890–1891) all-time roster edit

Nominator(s): Neonblak talk -
Toolbox

I am nominating this for featured list because I believe it meets all the critera for promotion. But, if the review process shows that it needs improvements, I will ensure that it that they are completed with haste. Neonblak talk - 04:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from KV5
Comments from KV5
Many of the comments I noticed on first perusal last evening have been fixed; good work! Just a few items left.
Lead
done*"With the disolution of the Players' League" - dissolution
done*"Although the team's on-field captain King Kelly returned" - you've mentioned his full name already, so you can remove "King"
done"When the 1891 season completed" - change completed to either "was completed" or "ended"
Tables
done*If an item doesn't appear bold in the table, then it shouldn't appear bold in the key.
done*"Had a pitching record of 18-13 in last season in the majors, he died of pneumonia during the off-season." - win/loss records should use en-dashes, like year ranges.
done*"The future Hall of Fame pitcher had a 27-12 record for the 1890 Reds, the second to last season of his career." - same
done*Statistic names don't need to be capitalized (At bats, Home runs, etc.).
done*Write out statistic names using percentage (on-base percentage, slugging percentage); don't pipelink.
done*"led the Players' league in RBIs 1890" - this happens a couple of times, it should either be in 1890, or the year should be in parentheses.
References
done*Websites are works, not publishers. The publisher for retrosheet.org is Retrosheet, Inc., and the publisher for Baseball-Reference.com is Sports Reference LLC.'

Hope this helps. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 12:00, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, great suggestions, quickly fixed many of the items you mentioned, will work on the sortability issue, and the two questioned resources, later on today.Neonblak talk - 14:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see that any of these have actually been completed in the article's history. Also, per the main WP:FLC page, we don't use graphics in reviews anymore. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 15:11, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Should show now, sorry.Neonblak talk - 15:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would be nice to see sortability, at least for the first four columns. I would sort the positions column by their fielding position number (1, pitcher; 2, catcher; etc.), and the seasons in numerical order, etc.
I tried a few ways, couldn't get it right. I don't see any other FL that sort position in that manner to use as an example. I am going to assume that is not crucial for passing this list. If you know how, feel free to update, thanks.Neonblak talk - 23:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do know how to do it, but the current way is perfectly acceptable. Well done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes the following reliable sources?
  • projectballpark.org (also a work, needs a publisher)
  • thedeadballera.org (also a work, needs a publisher)
To avoid a long discussion about these two sources, I eliminated the cause of death from Cinder O'Brien to rid the article of the reference need, and I used already established sources for the ballpark information.Neonblak talk - 21:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Check through your "notes" column now. With some of the changes that have been made, there are now some complete sentences that don't end in a full stop/period. Some reviewers may ask that they all become complete sentences; I don't mind a mix as long as fragments stay fragments (no punctuation) and sentences become sentences.
Re-wrote them all to conform to a uniform standard.Neonblak talk - 21:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Section header "List of players for the Boston Reds" can be just "List of players", or even just "Players" would be fine.
Fixed.Neonblak talk - 21:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • If/when sortability is completed, you would need to remove "in alphabetical order" from the last sentence of the lead (honestly, that sentence can be removed entirely, since the title tells you what it is).
Fixed.Neonblak talk - 23:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the popular, and well established cross-town rival" - remove comma
Fixed.Neonblak talk - 21:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some of your references in the lead still need fixing (the ones in the table look all right).

Cheers. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 15:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I have corrected all the refs now.Neonblak talk - 21:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comments (KV5)
Few more comments, very minor.
  • "Played sparingly for both the Reds and the Louisville Colonels in 1891, his last season in the majors." - looks like this is the only fragment left (John Irwin's entry).
  • In references, there is a double period on Retrosheet, Inc. I'm guessing you used a citation generator. No problem, but the double period should be removed.
  • With the baseball-reference.com refs (Sports Reference LLC), both work and publisher are required because the Sports Reference publisher is responsible for a number of websites. Add |work=baseball-reference.com to those references.
  • I might make the lead image larger; it's not doing much good at such a small size. MOS allows it, so I might suggest 225px?

This should be the last of it for me. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for all these suggestions. I wanted it to be as thorough as it can be, because I think this would be the first all-time roster list to get promoted, so I wanted this to be a template, so-to-speak, for future feature lists involving all-time rosters. I incorporated all the changes you just mentioned, and I upped the size of the photo to 325px, seems to fit pretty good at that size.Neonblak talk - 01:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Nashville Sounds all-time roster became a FL on Feb 14, 2009. But this would be the first major leauge and defunct all-time roster. -NatureBoyMD (talk) 03:01, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from NatureBoyMD
  • What purpose does the numbers column in the table serve? It seems superfluous. I recommend removing it and having the player's name as the first column.
No reason to be there, so I removed them.Neonblak talk - 21:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • As KV pointed out, it would be great if the table was sortable.
Table is now sortable, by name, position, and season.Neonblak talk - 23:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Were the players that also managed the team "player-managers" (they played and managed the team at the same time). If so, you'll want to change the terminology and link.
Changed wording to player-manager per suggestion.Neonblak talk - 21:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a few instances of complete sentences in the table that don't have periods.
Fixed.Neonblak talk - 21:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, most of the text in the notes column has the first letter capitalized, but there are a few that don't. Check for consistancy.
Fixed.Neonblak talk - 21:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The two items in the "literary notes" section should be moved to the "references" section under this heading: ;General. Similarly, the other refs should go under: ;Specific. (Include the semicolens.)
fixed per suggestion.Neonblak talk - 23:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the refs, an author's last name is spelled two different ways: "Foulds" and "Folds". Which is correct?
Fixed.Neonblak talk - 21:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other than these suggestions, the list looks fine. -NatureBoyMD (talk) 15:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - All of my concerns have been addressed. Nice work on an old-time base ball list. -NatureBoyMD (talk) 01:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment -- I will review this list once the above comments are fixed to avoid conflicting reviews, please notify me when that is done (if I don't come back to this list in time). Please, also avoid using {{done}} templates, they are discouraged, see the main page.--Best, ₮RUCӨ 20:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All items fixed, and used all suggestions, except for one. I will let you know per your suggestion.Neonblak talk - 23:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Truco
General
Lead
  • The Boston Reds were a Major League Baseball franchise that played in the Players' League (PL) in 1890, and then played one season in the American Association (AA) in 1891.
  • When the 1891 season ended, the American Association folded as well, leaving just the National League as the sole major league, and the Reds were bought out by the surviving National League clubs. -- Per MOS:ABBR, you need to be consistent with the use of acronyms, so you need to use the acronym here.
  • Actually, replacing all league names has hurt the prose considerably. I would suggest expanding league names in the lead back to full names and leaving the abbreviations in the table, since the requirement is consistent usage. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 11:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
List of players
  • The highlight should only be on the name of the player, not the entire row.
  • All entries need to be linked, that includes the positions (since this is a sortable table)
  • Notes
  • He played in two games for the 1890 Reds season, which was the last season of his 15 year career. --> He played two games in the 1890 Reds' season, which was the last season of his 15 year career.
  • He was the starting second baseman in 1890, and was the first Australian born person to play in the majors. -- (1)Unlink Australian per WP:OVERLINK (2)majors is jargony IMO, use major league instead
  • In 1891, he led the American Association in home runs, and tied for lead in RBIs with teammate Hugh Duffy. -- (1)add the before lead (2)RBI needs to be properly spelled out as runs batted in? (RBI)
  • He played in just six games during his only season in the majors. -- games played should either be linked earlier or not at all
  • He played in just one game during his only season in the majors. -- Is majors a proper term to refer to the major league?
  • Kelly was at the tail end of his Hall of Fame playing career when he became player-manager the 1890 Reds, and then later of the Cincinnati Kelly's Killers. -- (1)Add a before player-manager (2)Add of before the 1890 Reds
  • He started in left field for both teams. In 1890, he led the Players' league in RBIs. -- what do you mean both teams?
  • In 1891, he tied with teammate Duke Farrell for the American Association lead in RBIs. -- RBIs should be linked earlier
  • He had a pitching record of 9–15 for the Reds in 1890, his last full season in majors. -- add the before majors
  • O'Brien he had a pitching record of 18–13 in his final season. It was his last season in the majors because before he died during the off-season.
  • Some of these notes should only relate during their time with the Reds between 1890-1891, not what happens in the future.
  • Be consistent with linking in the notes, either link all instances or don't link at all, like games played
  • Seek a copyedit of the notes.
Images
  • Remove 1, the images run over to the next section.
References
  • The second general ref needs a space between the title and the publisher--Best, ₮RUCӨ 02:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for doing a thorough review of the list. After incorporating you suggestions, it does appear to be tighter. However, I do have a couple of comments. 1. My monitor is just a normal flat screen monitor (not a wide-screen), so the photos on the right actually run short of the table's end by five players. I had thought of adding another image to make it flush, but I left it alone. 2. Your gonna have to explain what you mean when you talk about checker box/checker tool. Other than that, I think I have addressed all of your concerns, if I missed something, please let me know.Neonblak talk - 04:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you ask another person to give an input on the image because on mines (widescreen) it does that. Do you see the toolbox at the right on this page? The first link generates the disambiguation links of the article, you need to go to each one and disambiguate them to specific articles.--Best, ₮RUCӨ 23:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- previous issues resolved; article now meets WP:WIAFL. Great work.--Best, TRUCO 02:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008
(ec) Comments - First, the disambiguation link means that an article, in this case Tommy Dowd, leads to a dab page instead of the one meant to be linked. This can be checked by using the dab checker on the top right of the FAC page. Here are my other comments upon seeing this list.
  • Most importantly, we need to prove that all of these images were published prior to 1923. I don't mean created, because that isn't the standard. A couple of the photos are from the Library of Congress, but it would be better to link to pages with those specific images on them. None of the others indicate when they were published.
  • "who won the the AA championship". Double word needs to be fixed. Also, the references are out of order in this sentence. Not the biggest issue in the world, but you might as well deal with it while there.
  • On the positive side, I really like the idea of having notes for each player. One issue with grammar, from Matt Kilroy: "his last full season in major leagues." The word "the" is missing.

The photo issue is by far the most pressing. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:26, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the explanation on the disamb. tool box, I had actually figured it out today at work, but the computer was so slow that I gave up trying to fix the one link. I will look into the photo issue shortly. Looks like I can kill two birds with one stone, just eliminate the photos that do not comply with the publishing standard. Thank you for your comments about the notes, I knew it was a risk, but I thought it fit well in the scope that the list is about the players, might as well throw a tid bit about each of them, make it interesting for the reader.Neonblak talk - 00:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, just dropped all the photos, including the team photo in the lead, because I could not find a suitable reference indicating exactly when they were published. The closest was Clark Griffith, his was a cropping of a photo taken by the Chicago Daily News in 1902. In the description is states that it may have been printed in the paper. The Dan Brouthers photo was a cropping of the original. So, I have made the changes you have pointed out, if there is room on the right of players to add another one, let me know.Neonblak talk - 02:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Meets the criteria after these, and other, fixes. Disclosure: I made some copy-edit changes to the notes to help this along. As for the content fork concern below, I feel that the main article isn't the right place for an all-time roster. Giants2008 (17-14) 21:45, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FLC talk asked reviewers to evaluate lists against the new criteria here. I'm sticking with my support because my viewpoint hasn't changed regarding this list. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:46, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - What makes this list notable? It seems like a content fork to me. It is fairly short space-wise; can it not be merged with the Boston Reds article, which much shorter than this article? NuclearWarfare (Talk) 19:41, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The WP:WIAFL is the current standard to meet, not any of the above items pointed out. A major league team, and major league players are all notable; other FLs are either shorter or not significantly longer, i.e. List of Boston Red Sox captains; nor do I think it matters whether it is longer than a related article.Neonblak talk - 21:12, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:08, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
  • "and then one season in the "
  • "The Reds were an instant success, not only on the field, but also in the public's opinion"-->The Reds were an instant success on the field and in the public's opinion
  • "they also played in a larger, more comfortable and modern ballpark"
  • "The PL lasted just one season, which left most of the teams without a league."-->The PL ended (better word could be used though) after one season, leaving most of its teams without a league.
  • "With the dissolution of the PL" "With"-->After
  • "former clubs, via the reserve clause." Comma not needed.
  • "Reds were able to stay intact"-->Reds stayed intact
  • "leaving just the NL"
  • "Although he went hitless in seven at bats in 1891, he went on to play seven more seasons from 1895 through 1902." A bit too much detail.
  • "played in just six games"
  • "He played a total of six games during his only season"
  • "in just one game"
  • A key is needed for the actual positions.
  • "which was the last season of his 15 year career."-->the last season of his 15-year career.
  • "Australian born person "-->Australian-born person
  • "eleven year career."-->11-year career.
  • "second to last season"--?second-to-last season Dabomb87 (talk) 22:23, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the review, especially in an area that is definately a weak spot for me. I made all the changes that you recomended.Neonblak talk - 22:41, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A key is still needed for the positions. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
sorry, I did the same thing to someone else. It was completed, but I hadn't hit enter yet. I will see if I can make the title of the key just one box, not split like the rest of the key.Neonblak talk - 23:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:23, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My support stands after the FLC criteria changes. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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