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Wikipedia:Featured article review/West Indian cricket team in England in 1988/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 4:55, 19 September 2020 (UTC) [1].

West Indian cricket team in England in 1988 edit

Notified: Dweller, The Rambling Man, WikiProject Cricket, WikiProject Caribbean

In 2014, and then again a few weeks ago, notifications were left on the talk page about the quality of this article, but no significant action has been taken. The referencing is generally poor throughout the article, with a number of {{citation needed}} templates scattered about. There is also no prose summary at all for the ODI series. The article certainly fails 1b and 1c as it stands. Harrias talk 10:13, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the article needs quite a lot of work and isn't currently FA quality. However, I think I could fix it relatively easily. Just not speedily because I'm about to take about 10 days wikibreak and because IRL I'm very busy with Covid-related work, which has impacted my editing for the last few months... and when I can edit, I do need to prioritise an existing FAC that's taking a lot of work to get through. I've not done any FAR work for a long time, so don't know how long these nominations can sit without being closed, but I'd ask for some flexibility on this. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:35, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take a look at it when I can. But the timing for this could have been much better. I only see two [citaiton needed] templates by the way... The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:57, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry; from the point of view of you both being busy right now, I hadn't actually realised it was your FA until after I had set this up, when I went to do the notifications. That said, I'm not convinced that this is easily fixable anyway. I can't believe that this series hasn't been covered in a range of books, so the sources present at the moment are unlikely to meet the requirement that the article be a "thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature". This needs a fair bit of work just to meet the current GA criteria, let alone FA. Harrias talk 11:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It was a miserable summer for England and books tend to be spawned by good ones. Similarly, the Windies literature mostly focuses on their incredible peaks - the following winter, the Windies undeservedly beat England despite playing at home, and the decline followed. I'm not aware of any specialist books on this topic but that said if there is one, we can buy and reflect it. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:32, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just going out on a limb, but Long Shot Summer: The Year of Four England Cricket Captains might cover it! Harrias talk 13:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
AMAZING! I had no idea a book had been published. Seems to be well reviewed. I'll buy it. Thank you very much. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:46, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias do you have any other paper sources that we could use when updating this? My thoughts are perhaps for a legacy section or at least something which puts it into a more historical context if that's something we can do. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
By the looks of it all four England captains have autobiographies, but only Gooch's was published after this series. Viv has a biography from 2000; I don't think I own it, which is odd for a Somerset legend. I do have a few books about him, but I think they might all have come before this series too. I don't think there is much in Lister's Fire in Babylon. West Indian Summer: The Test Series of 1988 sounds promising, but it might be a picture book, rather than anything too useful. Harrias talk 15:11, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:32, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I sent you an email with a little bit that might help. Harrias talk 17:27, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I saw and replied, thanks! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:01, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At FAR, we've been pretty flexible and have left articles open for an extended period (sometimes months) if there is active work being undertaken to save them. Just sayin' Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:09, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure we can do something in those timescales...! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:38, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick comment for now... the third (penultimate) paragraph of the description of the fourth Test says "Ambrose being hapless bowler..." – apart from the fact the word "the" is missing, what was so "hapless" about notifying the umpires of a waterlogging problem? This seems entirely the wrong word to use here. Richard3120 (talk) 14:39, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If I was a gambling man, I'd say that phase wasn't present in the FAC-accredited version. It will be mopped up when we get there, thanks! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment my initial intention will be to get rid of or source anything unsourced, then deal with the corrupted tone, then ensure we have MOS compliance. At that point I suggest commentators here can be more specific on things they would like to see worked upon. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment update for today: all three ODI's are now reliably summarised. I've also worked through the summaries of the first two (of five) Tests. And now I'm exhausted, so I'm calling it a day for today at least on that (probably). Once the Tests are covered, the "Aftermath" section needs tackling, which I'll hope that both Dweller and Harrias might be able to assist with. Cheers all. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment didn't make much progress today, removed some overlinks, and got a bit of a start on the facts of the third Test. Will aim to get that and more done tomorrow. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:20, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment slow progress, completed the update on the third Test, two more to go. P.S. it would be helpful if someone could tell me whether the summaries for the ODIs and three Tests so far are sufficient so I know I'm in the right ballpark. If not I guess there'll be a shedload more work in a few weeks to turn what I'm doing into what is "expected" and that feels a little wasteful of my current time. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:28, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I referred to just the summary subsections of the two World Cup articles and to just the lead of the dedicated article with the differences between the article types in mind. I am not suggesting it imitates the entire article. CMD (talk) 07:18, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'm not sure I follow really. If the summaries of the ODIs and Tests 1 to 3 are suitable, that's all I'm concerned with right now. Sourcing the italics is trivial (it's all already sourced, just not explicitly). The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:21, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To reword, I think the current text is on the right track. I would suggest that for completeness the conditions of each test (and ODI) get a broader coverage, given the critical impact it can often have on test matches. Certain impacts are mentioned in the current text, for example "rain-affected second day", "afflicted by poor light", "a blocked drain resulted in the bowler's run-up area being waterlogged". These tidbits would be better served if a broader context of the overall conditions is given. CMD (talk) 08:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, if sources cover the conditions, they can be added, but it's borderline minutiae in the wider context of this series. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And by all means feel free to help out. I've got a lot on my plate at the moment, this FAR was just about the last thing I needed, but I'm dutifully trying my best to get it more shipshape. Any assistance would be great. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, the italic text is part of a template which includes a "report" parameter, and that cites all the content, including the italic text. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:08, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) Just glanced through the three ODIs; broadly speaking they are what I would expect; I'm not sure we want as much detail as 2003 Cricket World Cup Final, 2009 Women's Cricket World Cup Final and First Test, 1948 Ashes series, as they are articles focused on single matches, whereas this is a series summary. There are a few points on each, but they are mostly minor copy-editing issues, not a scope issue. I still think that this article will need to use the book I mentioned above (Long Shot Summer: The Year of Four England Cricket Captains) to be considered representative, among other books that might be consulted. Harrias talk 06:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, it's very much a work in progress, I just didn't want to waste my time chasing a lost cause. It's going to take a couple of months I expect, but as Cas mentioned above, as long as I'm making progress, and in the right direction, it shouldn't be a problem. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:20, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, no rush, but I think you're absolutely on the right track. Harrias talk 07:27, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Fifth Test now cited match-report-wise. Aftermath next.... if only I had all the Wisden books to reference.... Dweller..... The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 16:36, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I have a full set of Wisdens from about 1977; what are you after for the fourth Test and aftermath? (I have the books, but less and less time..) Harrias talk 18:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm actually waiting for Dweller, especially if he gets the book you recommended, to fill out and reference some of the more fluffy encyclopedic stuff. If there's any chance you can do some shots of Wisden for each test, I can then at least plug some gaps that I didn't necessarily get from the Grauniad archive, and yes, the aftermath too if any articles cover it? No stress, it's TOO HOT to worry too much about this sort of thing at the moment. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:31, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The book is slightly delayed (knew I should have bought electronic edition!) - npw due to come tomorrow. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:10, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Dweller: Any update? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:01, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
He's already added some citations, which I fixed up, from that book. There have been literally no comments beyond the original nomination for this FAR which made a few general points, most of which seem to have been more than adequately addressed. Besides, there's no rush, as long as we make incremental progress in between other projects, this is just fine to keep running. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 19:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'd welcome some pointed comments about what needs fixing. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest you mean "actionable" rather than pointed but I agree! The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 09:03, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I used the book to beef up some of the dodgy prose about England and West Indies prospects before the series. Do let me know what else is needed, please. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently the nominator is on holiday til 5 Sept; I scanned and saw some citations needed, and added one. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:24, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Yesterday, I spotted what the nominator may have still found issue with - the Aftermath section was bloated, OR-ish and lightly referenced. I started deleting, and added some cn tags. We'll fix it up and report back here when it's done. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 07:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Now 103 references, doubled in size overall and I think it's good. Thanks to all the collaborators. Can I propose we move to close this FAR? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you can, but it probably won't happen until the nominator returns from holiday, as we need to hear if they are satisfied. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:36, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm content with that. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 19:06, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dweller, to speed things along, you could leave messages (or ping, as you prefer) everyone who got involved in this review, to ask if they are now satisfied ... otherwise, Cas or DK or Nikki will end up having to do that later anyway. But in general terms, yes, anyone can enter a Close without FARC declaration if they believe issues have been addressed-- in that case, we don't move to the FARC "Keep or Delist" stage. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:02, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further notes edit

  • The Squads section is unreferenced, and feels odd being at the end of the article: wouldn't it be better to have each box in the relevant "Fooian team" section at the start of the article?
  • Generally, the Squads boxes are not great. The titles should use endashes rather than hyphens. What do the numbers represent? I think it would be more useful to a reader to give the name in full, rather than using initials.
  • There are a number of duplicate links throughout the article. User:Evad37/duplinks-alt will highlight them if you don't have a similar such tool.
    • I have no idea how to use that. You're welcome to help. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:34, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Dweller, I was going to do these for you, but some of the extra links may be judgment calls. It is worth it to learn how to use the duplinks checker, although it appears to be a pain at first. After you install it, when viewing the article (too bad it doesn't work in edit mode), you have a "Highlight duplicate links" line in the tools at the left-hand side of your screen. When clicking on that, it appears that nothing happens, but you have to scroll down in to the article where you will see the first link of repeated links surrounded by a small black box, and then subsequent links to the same article surrounded by a red box. There are several that should probably be removed here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:19, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks so much for trying to explain but I know my limitations. I'd definitely break something and it would probably break me. Apologies, I'm not great with the technical stuff. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:32, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'll do this, but honestly, it's lowest on the priority list. Once all major editing tasks are complete, then we get rid of dups. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 14:36, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
            • That's a good idea, because if I have to fix more issues raised by Harrias I'll probably create new problems in the process. And thank you, TRM. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:18, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref #12 does not support the suggestion that it was a "hard-fought" draw; it is merely a list of links.
  • "was unlikely to be repeated, given that the West Indies' only specialist spinner was Roger Harper, an off-break bowler." Unreferenced.
    • No idea how to reference this. Evidently true, but I'd need a source to say that not Harper was the only spinner in the squad and he was an off spinner and none of them say that because it would be odd. Leggies are so rare. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:46, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Have cited Tony Cozier's Wisden article on the tour, which refers to Harper being the only specialist spinner, and Harper's Cricinfo profile to show him as an off-spinner - hopefully enough to support the statement? --Bcp67 (talk) 08:00, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "including a so-called "Blackwash"" This feels repetitive from the previous section. ("These two one-sided victories by the West Indies became known as "blackwashes"."
  • "..in "the crazy summer of 1988"." Provide inline attribution for the quote.
    • It's already referenced, not sure what you mean. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:20, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ah, goddit. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:31, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, now, this is where you and I will disagree. You see, I think an opinion published by the editor of Wisden can be attributed to Wisden. (See below) You don't. But I happily followed your suggestion below because what is FAR other than appeasing critical reviewers. But here we come unstuck. There are two not that well known authors of this piece and I don't know which of them wrote this line. I'd go for attributing it to espn cricinfo, or better, leave it unattributed inline because it's obvious to the reader that it's attributed to the reference that follows. So I'm rather stuck here. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:35, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Wisden was moved to comment.." Wisden is a book, and cannot be "moved to comment": Tony Cozier was.
  • "The significance of there being four captains in just five Test matches can better be understood with context. The captain of a cricket team performs a vital role. Unlike many other team sports, the captain makes crucial decisions regarding on-field tactics, and may also have an important say in team selection. Traditionally, captains of international teams are not changed frequently – for example, between 1977 and 1988 (comprising 104 Test matches), only seven different men captained England, yet there were four captains in just a few weeks in the summer of 1988." Unreferenced paragraph, and the tone feels a bit odd.
    • I've fixed the referencing and disagree about the tone. It needs to be unpacked for someone unfamiliar with the context. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:18, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • All the tables need table headers.
  • "..the selectors "did not seem to know where to turn, either for a new captain or for a settled team"." Provide inline attribution for the quote.
  • "The England team had not suffered such uncertainty since the West Indies tour of England in 1966, where the selectors chose 23 different players and three different captains (Colin Cowdrey, M. J. K. Smith and Brian Close) and England lost the five-Test series 3–1." This is an opinion, but is sourced to two statistical entries. Appears to be OR.
  • "defeating Somerset in May and Kent in June. The other nine first-class matches, and the First Test, were all drawn: Sussex, Gloucestershire, Worcestershire, Lancashire, Northamptonshire, Leicestershire, Glamorgan, Nottinghamshire, and Essex. During the match against Gloucestershire at Bristol, immediately after the ODI series, Phil Simmons suffered a horrific injury, receiving a ball to the head from bowler David Lawrence. Not wearing a helmet, the blow caused his heart to stop and he had to be taken to hospital where he underwent emergency brain surgery. He missed the rest of the tour, but made a full recovery in time for the 1991 West Indies tour of England." This all looks like it is sourced to ref #30, but that only mentions the Gloucestershire match and Simmons injury, not the other matches.

Reviewed to the end of Statistical summary. Overall, the first few sections still looks like they need a thorough overhaul of the referencing; there is a fair bit of opinion being presented that is only referenced to statistics, rather than secondary sources. This was mostly a quick scan, rather than an in-depth look at these sections. They also are almost exclusively discussing Test cricket; it feels odd that very little background is presented for the ODI series: indeed, I don't think the West Indian team section mentions ODIs at all. We know they were the best Test team, how did they typically fare in ODIs? Who had been favourite for the ODI series? Harrias talk 10:09, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • Your comments about the ODIs don't stack up for me. We've given them plenty of coverage and arguably too much. Your perspective is a 2020 one, not a 1988 one. In 1988, they were seen as a curtain-raiser to the main affair. Evidence? Just look how Wisden treats it - two fleeting mentions in the prose review of the tour, compared to the sizable chunk of the equivalent article for the 2017 tour. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:03, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • This is a fair point. Nice work on all these points, I'll unpick it as soon as I can. Suddenly have a lot going on offline, but I'll try and make this my priority when I'm on here. Harrias talk 17:15, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Cheers. There's no rush. I'm determined to keep this an FA and will be here to pick up your concerns. Both of us just want it to be an FA quality article. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 18:26, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I won't be able to spend much time on this now, so it'll be what it'll be. A shame all the effort expended appears wasted, but hey ho. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 11:05, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see if I can do a bit more based on the 1989 edition of Wisden. --Bcp67 (talk) 11:39, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I think this article still has scope for improvement, I am content that the issues I have raised have been dealt with. I am very busy off-wiki for various reasons at the moment, and am likely to be for a while yet. As such, I will be unable to take any further significant part in this discussion, however I am happy for this to be closed without the need for FARC. Harrias talk 10:07, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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