Wikipedia:Featured article review/Manuel I Komnenos/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept 11:34, 10 March 2007.
Manuel I Komnenos edit
Review commentary edit
- Messages left at Bigdaddy1204, Military history and Biography. Todor→Bozhinov 11:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC) Message left at Greece. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Looks comprehensive, but there are some quite important issues to be dealt with. The intro is way too long and not concise at all: it includes non-summary stuff, even trivia, a quote and analysis, which should be in any case integrated into the body.
Significant portions of the body have absolutely no citations: "Arrival of the Crusaders", "Cyprus invaded", "Papal-Byzantine alliance", "Allure of Egypt", most of "Kilij Arslan II and the Seljuk Turks", as well as large parts of other sections. Where footnotes do exist, they are pretty scarce (they're only 19 and from just six sources).
Also, some of the images' relevance to the article is rather debatable (views of Egypt and Cyprus, rural church which itself possibly has nothing to do with the period, satellite view of the Balkans). Todor→Bozhinov 11:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It may be useful to compare this article with FAs on Epaminondas and Isaac Newton, which were used as inspiration when I was writing Manuel I Komnenos. I wouldn't say the intro is out of place myself, since it was carefully modelled on other featured articles, but then I do understand that others may see things differently. I am aware that things have changed quite markedly since I wrote the article - the criteria for footnotes etc have been tightened up considerably, for example. I suppose it may largely fall to me to provide more footnotes, since I was the one who wrote the sections in the first place. However, I have a lot of other commitments at the moment which are keeping me from my wikipedia work. I will try to do what I can, time permitting, but I'm afraid I can't promise much immediately. The debate over the images is not a new one, but I have always strongly felt that the images are not irrelevant, particularly in the case of the fortifications on Cyprus. My personal feeling is that these images add life to what would otherwise be a dull wall of text, but past experiences with wikipedia have left me with a bitter taste in my mouth, so to speak, and so I cannot but wonder whether that is what some editors want. That is NOT an attack on anyone here, i'm just trying to explain my feelings on the issue of the images. But that is a relatively minor point in any case. The intro and pictures are largely a matter of personal opinion and taste; however the citations are important. I would be very grateful to anyone who could help by adding citations themselves where they are able. Beyond that, I will try to help when I can, but as I have said I cannot promise much right now. Bigdaddy1204 13:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Manuel I Komnenos was a model article, when it was first nominated in FAC, and it still qualifies as one of our best articles. I think the major problem is the inadequate citing. The intro is not too long, taking into consideration the fact that articles like Third Servile War with longer leads recently qualified as FA (this article, in particular, had a huge support). In any case, we can have a detailed look in the lead and clean it, if necessary. The photos are IMO a secondary issue not strong enough to lead to the de-featuring of the article; but we can discuss this issue as well. I'm determined to keep this article as FA, and I'm willing to help with the sources and the citing, but the main editor of this article is Bigdaddy; he has done all the researsh and the writing, and I wouldn't like to look like somebody trying to shadow his work. If there is no problem from his part, I'll start working on the article within the next 2-3 days.--Yannismarou 16:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree citations are the biggest problem, and I also share the view the lead and the pictures aren't as important an issue to lead to defeaturing. I still think the lead should be more concise, though. People voting or commenting on the Third Servile War must have somehow missed the lead issue, it's full of details which should go to the body in my opinion. Todor→Bozhinov 11:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If Bigdaddy has no objection, I will start working on the article from tomorrow.--Yannismarou 21:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree citations are the biggest problem, and I also share the view the lead and the pictures aren't as important an issue to lead to defeaturing. I still think the lead should be more concise, though. People voting or commenting on the Third Servile War must have somehow missed the lead issue, it's full of details which should go to the body in my opinion. Todor→Bozhinov 11:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Manuel I Komnenos was a model article, when it was first nominated in FAC, and it still qualifies as one of our best articles. I think the major problem is the inadequate citing. The intro is not too long, taking into consideration the fact that articles like Third Servile War with longer leads recently qualified as FA (this article, in particular, had a huge support). In any case, we can have a detailed look in the lead and clean it, if necessary. The photos are IMO a secondary issue not strong enough to lead to the de-featuring of the article; but we can discuss this issue as well. I'm determined to keep this article as FA, and I'm willing to help with the sources and the citing, but the main editor of this article is Bigdaddy; he has done all the researsh and the writing, and I wouldn't like to look like somebody trying to shadow his work. If there is no problem from his part, I'll start working on the article within the next 2-3 days.--Yannismarou 16:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment A big problem is the POV statements too, with a whole load of adjectives being used. Definitely isn't neutral. LuciferMorgan 23:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thankyou for your support, Yannismarou. I would be very happy for you to start working on the article; it would be a great help. If there is anything specific you'd like to know about the article, or what sources I used to describe a specific event, you are welcome to leave a message on my userpage and I will try to answer as soon as I can. Bigdaddy1204 17:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary edit
- Suggested FA criteria concerns include LEAD (2a), non-summary style and trivia (4), referencing (1c), and images (3). Marskell 09:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: Tomorrow I'll be back from my wikibreak, and I will continue working on the article. I believe that untile the end of the week I'll be over, and the article will be again a proper FA.--Yannismarou 20:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Update II: I think I did most of the citing and content work, and I also enriched the photos of the article adding more, and removing those irrelevant. I think the article has already reached a particularly high level, but I will keep my work, focusing now on prose issues and on the lead.--Yannismarou 18:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I commend Yannismarou for his excellent progress on improving Manuel I Komnenos. I am much impressed by the changes that have been made. I also entirely approve of the new images that have been introduced. Good work! Bigdaddy1204 23:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Excellent restoration work by Yannismarou. qp10qp 09:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.