Wikipedia:Featured article review/Holkham Hall/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Marskell 12:12, 27 June 2008 [1].

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Holkham Hall

This article, actually with FA status, is not worthy of have the brown star. I think this because the following motivations:

• Bad referenced: a lon bibliography and some external links, but where are the notes? The second note needs a reference -_- ;
• Bad article organization: there isn't a paragraph for the history, because all is mixed in the various paragraphs (example: in "Interior" there is some history);
• There aren't the links to the dates and to the years.

This isn't a good example for new users that are searching an example for FA. Mojska ^{all you want} 10:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Notifications request Request Please complete the nomination by following the instructions at the top of WP:FAR to notify significant contributors and relevant WikiProjects, and post the notifications back to the top of this FAR. Thank you. --Regents Park (roll amongst the roses) 12:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Bad referenced": what does "a lon bibliography" refer too? The article contains a reference section, listing 11 books.
• "Bad article organization ": for my money, to follow the fates of the house—re-building, additions, etc— from the early 18th century up to today is the only reasonable structure for this type of subject, and makes for a vigorous, enjoyable reading experience. How else would you organize it?
• "There aren't the links to the dates and to the years ": no, there aren't, and there aren't supposed to be. "Links to date elements that do not contain both a day number and a month are not required; for example, solitary months, solitary days of the week, solitary years, decades, centuries, and month and year combinations. Such links must not be used unless the reader needs to follow the link to understand the topic; see WP:CONTEXT."[2]
• "This isn't a good example for new users that are searching an example for FA." Yes, it is. Bishonen | talk 14:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC).

• Footnotes are fundamental for a FA, and this article has only 2 notes !! The article may be more tidy: History --> Architecture [subparagraphs] --> Modern history. What of these books do you get for say that "The cost of the construction of Holkham is thought to have been in the region of £90,000 (allowing for inflation, approximately £8m in 2006)" or "building was to continue for thirty years until in 1764 the great house was completed". I want to translate this article in Italian, but there aren't many references (for references I say footnotes). Can you save it? Thanks. Mojska ^{all you want} 17:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

As it happens, the main author (who you're asked to notify, please see Regents Park's post above) is himself Italian, User:Giano II, see the FAC nomination and discussion. I suggest you contact him at his user talk. That might be simpler than listing it on this board. (And perhaps more likely to meet with success than opening with telling him how bad you think it is.) Just a suggestion. Bishonen | talk 19:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC).

• I agree that this article is not up to FA status. The criteria for wikipedia is verifiability and the way it is written, none of this can be verified. It doesn't have any in-line references, merely a list of sources. As there is no indication of what text comes from which sources it is impossible to tell who made the rather sweeping statements, and which of them (if any) are the personal interpretation of the contributor. For instance:

"Holkham Hall is one of England's finest examples of the Palladian revival style of architecture, the severity of the design being closer to Palladio's ideals than many of the other numerous Palladian style houses of the period." Who says so?

"It is thought he first met Burlington, the aristocratic architect at the forefront of the Palladian revival movement in England, and William Kent in Italy in 1715; it is possible that there in the original home of Palladianism, the idea of a new mansion at Holkham was conceived" It is thought by whom? These are just weasel words if they are not attributed to someone.

"The external appearance of Holkham can best be described as a huge Roman palace. However, as with most architectural designs, it is never quite that simple. Holkham is a Palladian house, and yet even by Palladian standards the external appearance of Holkham is austere and devoid of ornament (see illustration)." Who says it can be best described as a Roman Palace? The rest of it sounds very POV to me. "See Illustration" sounds like "it's obvious- just take a look"

"The Palladian style was beloved by Whigs such as Thomas Coke, who liked to identify themselves with the Romans of antiquity" Did they - who says so?

"Above the windows of the piano nobile, where on a true Palladian structure the windows of a mezzanine would be, there is nothing. The reason for this is the double height of the state rooms on the piano nobile; however, not even a blind window is permitted to alleviate the severity of the facade" Who says that's the reason?

"This vast cost nearly ruined the heirs of the 1st Earl, but had the result that they were financially unable to alter the house to suit the whims of taste. Thus, the house has remained almost untouched since its completion in 1764. Today, this perfect, if severe, example of Palladianism…………etc." These sort of assertions need to be verifiable and at the moment they aren't"

The section on "The estate, park & gardens" had developed into an awful mess until I tidied it up a week or so ago, so I do get the impression that nobody is really keeping an eye on the article to ensure it keeps its FA status. However, having said that, there do seem to be some wp:ownership issues here. Someone flagged up the problem with references with a "nofootnotes" tag and User:Giano II removed it and left the following comment in the edit summary " it is quite clear to me! If you hava a problem do some research." Well if he wrote the article then it would be clear to him wouldn't it? Richerman (talk) 11:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

• • Comment to Richerman: Yes, absolutely. The author is not watching out for his FA, and he has ownership issues with it. Only the evil Giano could manage that combination! We're fortunate that he seems to be phasing himself out[3] and discontinuing that pesty FA production. Bishonen | talk 17:36, 12 June 2008 (UTC).
  • Reply from the evil Richerman Ok, lets not get silly. Maybe I could have phrased it a little better, but what I was trying to say is that if you produce an article that's well-rated and you want it to stay that way, keep an eye on other additions and keep them in order. However it's no good having a fit of pique when somone puts on a tag flagging up a problem. The thing to do is sort out the problem and then remove the tag. This article was rated as FA some years ago and things have moved on since then as wikipedia has often been criticised for being unreliable. Because of that, good referencing has now become very important and an FA article is supposed to be an example of the best that wikipedia can produce. We all want to see this article improved rather than demoted but unfortunately, short of completely rewriting it, the only person that can fix the references is the one who wrote it in the first place as only he knows which bits came from which book. I've spent quite a lot of time tidying up some of the later additions to make them read better as it looked like a a section designed by a committee and yes, some of my edits weren't quite right and that's been fixed by someone else. That's fine, that's the way wikipedia is supposed to work. Were all here to try to improve articles, not to fall out with each other. If any of my comments were seen as insulting I apologise unreservedely. And what is that link to Giano II's contribution page supposed to tell me?Richerman (talk) 10:26, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
    • The contribs link? That's supposed to be an evil inline reference for the statement that he's phasing himself out. Bishonen | talk 11:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC).
      • Ah, I thought there was going to be something that said" I've had enough of this, I'm off." Maybe he's got the 'flu, fallen in love, drunk too much wine, taken a Grand Tour of Europe with time only for the occasional edit - who knows!! :-) Richerman (talk) 14:13, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
        • I do. :-( Bishonen | talk 16:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC).
• Comment Article is certainly FA standard except that it wholly lacks inline citations to the very comprehensive list of references. There will be no difficulty sourcing the statements above if those are available. I had to re-tidy a couple of Richerman's alterations above. I don't see any merit to the nominator's comments on the organisation. Johnbod (talk) 12:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I disagree with Mojska - other than the footnotes, this article is more than up to the current standard in terms of prose, organization and MOS-type issues. I understand that most of the FAs from years ago don't have footnotes, but this is definitely one of the better ones, and there's really no reason to remove it. Someone with access to the references should, however, probably add inline citations. I'm not sure who has access to these references - presumably Giano? I have found two of them online:
  • http://books.google.com/books?id=mXA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PP1&dq=William+Kent:+Architect,+Designer,+Painter,+Gardener&ei=6INRSK3LI6HOjgHLqLhC&sig=8GeugtFP-DiFc-6PrnxRVl7sxrw#PPP11,M1
  • and http://books.google.com/books?id=qsqx_SK3bzUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=norfolk+2:+North-West+and+South&ei=SYRRSOiiFKOQjgGwg8Q1&sig=zo3rbRxE_ygGtfR2CuAMBNfNjMM Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 20:18, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Since I avoid working on articles with FA status, I hope that someone will notify me when this one is de-listed, so I can begin footnoting the obvious assertions and mainstream observations. --Wetman (talk) 00:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not just do it now and avoid delisting? Do you have access to the references? Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 17:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to delist the article, but I ask to the writer of add footnotes to the article. If you've got that books, you can say where you get that information. Mojska ^{all you want} 12:27, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

• There is nothing in the page that is not academically accepted and perfectly obvious. I have no intention of referencing the obvious. Is the sky blue? If you don't think so then delist it - or remove all the information that disturbs you so. I'm sure that will improve Wikipedia considerably. Giano (talk) 19:47, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

To quote from wp:verifiability "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." Richerman (talk) 22:15, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Then please just get on and remove the material you find so offensive, just stop bleating about it, failing that get hold of the references, read them, and add a thousand footnotes yourself. I have better things to do with my time than reference accepted facts. I have never read such rubbish as is written above in all my life. I suggest you remember it is better to be thought a fool than open one's mouth and prove it. Giano (talk) 22:22, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your last statement entirely - discussion ended. Richerman (talk) 22:30, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't quite see what this harping on the verifiability policy is all about. The article is verifiable - there is a full raft of references at the bottom. Indeed, the information contained in the article is verifiable for any reader who opens any of the reference books. There is no evidence whatsoever that WP:V has been breached. There are not, however, any inline citations. The original author of the article, Giano, does not feel there is anything sufficiently controversial as to require an inline cite. We're talking about a building, after all, not a living person. And yet, we have two editors concerned that the article is not verifiable. What is it that Richerman and Mojska feel is controversial enough to require an inline cite? There is no requirement in WP:WIAFA or Wikipedia:When to cite to include inline citations just for the sake of having inline citations. Nobody appears to be challenging statements in the article; therefore, Giano has nothing to respond to at this point.

It's a little concerning that, on an encyclopedic project that prides itself on its collaborative work, there is the expectation for the editor who brought the article to FA to go back and add inline cites into an article, years after the fact, without those initiating the FAR offering any assistance or accepting any responsibility for identifying areas of concern. (There are some FA reviewers who genuinely assist, and I exclude them from this paragraph.) It is also concerning that this article has only come to FAR because an editor wishes to translate it but doesn't want to do so without inline cites so expects the original author to do that work for him; and that the only comment on the quality of the article to date is its lack of (unspecified) inline citations, and its "bad organization" - the style of which is common to the majority of FA/GA architectural articles throughout (English) Wikipedia. Folks, without a specific concern about the article, or any identification of controversial claims, Holkham Hall still appears to meet featured article criteria. Risker (talk) 00:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed - there is little benefit in a page ref to a book you don't have, and most of the works referenced would I imagine not have too many mentions of Holkham to make finding them with the index difficult, once the book is in your hand. Admittedly, one would not know which book has a particular point, although I imagine many are in several of them. Hussey '55 and Pevsner both devote over 10 pages to the house & no doubt the vast majority of the article could conveniently be verified from either, without going to the monographs. Johnbod (talk) 01:03, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia for the general reader, not a place for essays on specialist subjects such as Palladian architecture. I have challenged six statements above and still no-one has told me who made them, how can I make it any clearer that these are the statements that I am concerned about? If these assertions were preceeded with statements such as "according to Hussey" or "Pevsner says that" I would be a lot happier as I could check the relevant books. However, I do feel that some of the statements such as "Today, this perfect, if severe, example of Palladianism" are probably the personal opinion of the editor. As was pointed out above, it is only polite to give the major contributors the chance to fix the problems first, but when one of them tells me to "stop bleating" and that I'm a fool for not accepting what he says without question, I have no interest in collaborating with him. I don't profess to be any sort of expert on architecture, but I have already spent a fair bit of time editing one of the sections where I thought the style could be improved and I've made a number of other small edits, so you can hardly accuse me of complaining without making a contribution. If there is a general consensus that the way this article is referenced is acceptable for today's FA standards, that's fine by me. It will be mean I don't have to bother with all those citation templates in future. I'll just put a list of a dozen or so publications at the end, and if anyone challenges anything I'll tell them to go and read them all themselves, However, I've a sneaking suspicion that they wouldn't get through.

Can I also draw your attention to a sentence from Wikipedia:Citing sources?

"Articles can be supported with references in two ways: the provision of general references – books or other sources that support a significant amount of the material in the article – and inline citations, which are mandated by the featured article criteria and (to a lesser extent) the good article criteria"

It also says "Full citations for books typically include: the name of the author, the title of the book or article, the date of publication, and page numbers". Well quite a few of the book references in the article don't have page numbers either.

Sorry to "harp on" about this - I thought we were having a reasoned discussion, but it seems when someone disagrees with you you're harping on. Richerman (talk) 09:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

People keep saying to you, cite the obvious if you feel so inclined, delist the page, or just remove the commonplace facts you find so concerning. Only you seem greatly bothered enough to "harp on" - no one else is that interested or could care less what happens to the page. If you feel you are improving Wikipedia, get on with it. Giano (talk) 21:44, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

No, you keep saying those things. Firstly, I have every right to respond to the criticism made against me that I feel are unjustified. Secondly, I can't delist anything, this is the first stage of s discussion about whether the article should be delisted and the whole point of it is to flag up the problems and suggest remedies, both of which I've done. The delisting is done by the features articles editor if a consensus is reached. Thirdly, if I took out all the bits that caused me concern there wouldn't be a coherent article left. And finally, if you have no interest in the article then why do you keep coming back with comments? Richerman (talk) 22:29, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Because you want me to reference the obvious for you, and I'm not going to. So there! I have pointed out to you (as have others) which books the obvious facts that concern you are in, yet for some reason you don't seem to want to do it yourself. You come here demanding this and that, your comments above demonstrate you clearly know nothing of the subject, so here is your golden opportunity, get the books out of the library and improve your mind. You may even find some interesting facts I omitted. FAs are a very fleeting and vainglorious accolade, you say you want to see this referenced and not delisted, you have concerned yourself with it, so go on down to the library and get on with it, and do stop berating us here because I have no intention of adding one more cite to it. FA status or not. If you are too lazy to meet your own demands to reference the obvious then as you hint you are quite at liberty to remove the offensive facts from the page. Giano (talk) 22:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

You've got it completely wrong, I don't want you to do anything. You've already made it quite clear you're not going to add anything to the references - all you are going to do is to indulge in personal attacks on those who disagree with you and so I am not willing to discuss this with you any further. I assure you that any further comments I make on this page are not intended for you. Richerman (talk) 23:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Richerman, Giano hasn't been making personal attacks. Though he's made some snarky comments, labeling them as personal attacks is a complete fabrication. I suggest that you stop being so offended at what Giano is saying - he has a right to his opinion, and his opinion is that there's no need for inline cites. Though I disagree that the facts are obvious (well, they may be obvious among experts on architecture, but they're hardly likely to read Wikipedia, are they?), fruitless arguing over it will do no good. If I have time, I'll try to add inline references from the two online books I linked to, but unfortunately I can't find any others. I certainly don't think this article should be delisted either way, as Risker pointed out above. The prose and organization is excellent, and a lack of inline citations shouldn't be a huge hindrance. I do ask of you, though, Giano, to please help add at least a few - there are those who think that an article should be delisted on inline citations (or a lack of them) alone, I don't want that fate to befall this particular article, since it's one of the best I've read in a while. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 01:13, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, the voice of reason at last. I absolutely agree that everyone has the right to their own opinion but they are also expected to put it across in a civil manner. maybe "personal attack" is too strong a phrase but he's certainly not being civil. Anyway, I'm certainly not going to go running to teacher to complain about it - I would just prefer to have an adult discussion on talk pages and not let it descend into schoolyard rhetoric. I agree entirely that this is well-written article and the referencing is the only problem - however, I do think that's a big problem for a featured article as they are supposed to be an example of the best wikepedia has to offer. Having said that, I'm certainly not being goaded into removing information from a featured article, or to make any other major changes, just to make a point, without first gaining consensus. Richerman (talk) 07:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

On referencing, the two books I could try to find the ones not on the internet at my library this weekend, but I'm not optimistic - it's quite a small library. Of course, I'd much rather reference the article than remove valuable information. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 20:19, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a shame there are no pictures of the interior, though I appreciate these places don't usually allow photography. Perhaps one of the cross-sections from Brettingham's book [4]? BTW, there is a quote from Lees-Milne but Lees-Milne is not listed in the references. Someone may wish to add this in (or, given the discussion above, they may not wish to add it in). One other minor quibble: is the orangery still roofless and windowless? DrKiernan (talk) 16:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• It is inded a huge shame, hopefully , now phone cameras are more prevalent we shall se more interior shots. I suspect the orangery is still ruinous, as a search of Holkham's own site (which has a search facility) yields nothing of interest. Had the estate spent a fortune on restoration I feel there may have been a mention. There are cross section drawings on commmons which may enhance the page. Giano (talk) 21:27, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I was there a couple of weeks ago and I'm afraid the orangery is still roofless and windowless. Richerman (talk) 23:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I added a pic of the Green State bedroom, under FU. I suppose we are allowed one FU image. Ceoil ^sláinte 21:02, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

"on return Coke lived a feckless life, and preoccupied himself with drinking, gambling and hunting" This is getting ridiculous. maligning someone's memory without providing any evidence. I've put a fact tag on this as I don't want to revert it and get into an edit war but I don't suppose it will stay there long. Richerman (talk) 22:59, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

It was covered by Wilson in the next sentence, but I've added the same cite to 2 consecutive sentences just for you. "Maligning someone's memory"; please. Grow up. Ceoil (talk) 23:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood, but it's a lot clearer now with the double reference. Richerman (talk) 23:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

No worries. Ceoil (talk) 23:19, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see the effort has started without me. No need for me to go rushing off to the library, then? I'll try to correct any minor Manual of Style errors in the article. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 00:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this article is a wonder in terms of MOS - perfect. Some of the prose isn't quite brilliant, though, but all of it is quite good. I might make a few prose adjustments here and there. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 00:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment I'd like to see a third lead paragraph summarising the features of the building. Have a pathological fear of leads, so I wont attempt this myself. Ceoil ^sláinte 23:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. I might have made an error, though, so I would appreciated a double check. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 02:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks great! Ceoil ^sláinte 11:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I like to think of myself as good with prose. There'll be no need to bring this one to FARC, I hope? Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 16:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there is. I've asked Richerman to revisit; and well see how that goes. Ceoil ^sláinte 00:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

There are still some quite large chunks of text without cites in Interior, Exterior and Grounds but I'm sure that could be fixed with a few extra refs. Other than that I think it's looking great. I gave a longer reply to Ceoil about it on his talk page the other day but he may have missed it as it's a busy page. Richerman (talk) 00:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I read it alright Richerman, but hadn't digested it properly! Read it again now - I don't think anything you mentioned is problematic, and guess its just a matter of mechanically going through each and fixing. Thanks for the quick reply; hopefully we can be done here soon. Ceoil ^sláinte 01:02, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Reading your reply on Ceoils's talk page, Richerman, I'll give the article another prose run-through. You're right - at FAC, there would be hordes of brilliant-prose advocates storming in and nitpicking every detail (I'm not ashamed to admit that I would be among those hordes). Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 01:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, ok, and thanks for looking at the Heaton Park page too. Heaton hall could use some TLC from us as well as Manchester City Council. I pinched your idea for the fair use image too! Richerman (talk) 01:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

TLC from Manchester City Council is not actionable ;) Ceoil ^sláinte 01:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Well it may come 80 years late but with some help from the lottery they grudgingly give some. Mind you, they're going to hit us with a congestion charge to get they're own money back. Richerman (talk) 01:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Could this be archived now, then? It seems just to be taking up space now to me. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 17:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added what refs I could from online libraries, etc; but I think this is enough. I don't think this needs FAR/C. Ceoil ^sláinte 19:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I left a note with Marskell. [5] Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it's looking really good now. Richerman (talk) 14:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Close without FARC (unclear why centuries and years were linked, or why the inscription is in italics). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Dont have a problem with centuries; inscription is fixed now. Ceoil ^sláinte 16:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.