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Wikipedia:Featured article review/Cliff Clinkscales/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 8:36, 4 June 2022 (UTC) [1].

Cliff Clinkscales

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Notified: TempleM, WP Bio, WP National Basketball League of Canada, WP College basketball, WP Basketball, WP New York City, noticed on 2021-12-09

Review section

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Bio of a sportsperson that has been allowed to fall really out of date. As noted by the RealGM source cited in the article, Clinkscales was still active through the 2019-2020 season, and was even awarded third team all-NBL Canada honors in that last season. Yet there is basically no information for these seasons, and his stats table hasn't even been updated. He's also an assistant coach, rather than a player, now. That source linked for his coaching career beginning also states why his playing career ended. Additionally, there are some smaller sourcing problems sprinkled throughout - "As a junior, Clinkscales regressed statistically" is original research based on interpretation of stat lines, and referring to a couple specific single-game performances as "notable", but sourcing them only to stats-only box scores. The #2 editor in the authorship list has not been notified because their contributions solely consists of a massive IABot run. Hog Farm Talk 21:04, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see Rikster2 has updated that he is now a coach. Would they be interested in updated the playing career as well? Hog Farm Talk 15:01, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to FARC, which does not preclude additional work. It's been close to 2 weeks since the article has been edited, and there hasn't been updating besides the addition of the new role as coach. Hog Farm Talk 20:16, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to FARC necessary updates on this BLP and active athlete have not been made yet. Progress has stalled. Z1720 (talk) 23:41, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to FARC, a few edits, no significant improvement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:29, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

FARC section

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Issues raised in the review section largely concern currency. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:21, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delist - while he's been updated as a coach, there's still a large chunk at the end of his playing career that isn't covered properly in the article. Hog Farm Talk 14:27, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • It looks like the needed updates are at least in progress; I'll give this a reread soon. Courtesy ping to SandyGeorgia. Hog Farm Talk 19:00, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delist, per HF. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:53, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Holding off for now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:53, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Just update the article yourself. There's two and a half seasons missing for a no-name player, not a large chunk of the article. It will take one to two hours. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:05, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    It does need to happen, though, for this to be kept. If no one else is willing and able, would you do this? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:13, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure, done. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 18:54, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not practically gonna be able to work on that - In a bit of a busy spot with work, I have no idea where to even start trying to find sources for Canadian basketball, and I'm trying to find time to work through a project of my own. Hog Farm Talk 03:21, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I would have no idea how to work on basketball content; baseball, yes, but I would not know what best sources are and what content was even relevant. Sportsfan77777, your keep is not based on useful logic. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:03, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Starting to give this a final review with the hopes of getting it polished up enough to be able to keep. I've been tagging some minor failed verification in the college career section, but it looks like something that should be easily fixable if a log of all his games in a season can be located. Hog Farm Talk 14:34, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Sportsfan77777: - This is looking much better and shouldn't take much to fix, but I do have a sourcing question. Is D-League Digest (cited in the article) considered a reliable source, or does it need to be removed? Hog Farm Talk 15:49, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think so, it says it's a part of ESPN. But regardless, the author of that article is now the Assistant GM of the Chicago Bulls, and therefore I think would qualify as a recognized expert. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 16:44, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        Being a "recognized expert" does not establish reliability: the wording at WP:SPS is "when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:48, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've been fairly busy this week; I really hope to get back to this after the weekend. Hog Farm Talk 04:58, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Sportsfan77777: - what are your thoughts here now? I've tagged a single failed verification in the 18-19 section, and have made a pass through the career section adding his seasonal gamelog to support a few instances of season-highs, as well removing some editorializing. From what I can see, what is really left here is fixing that one FV instance, updating the lead, fixing some ref formatting, determining if New York Post is appropriate for a BLP FA (WP:RSP is not flattering, and NYP was challenged in the 2016 FAC), and then finding something to ease the transition between the 09/10 and 13/14 seasons. He doesn't seem to have been in pro basketball, but there needs to be some sort of transition. Hog Farm Talk 05:21, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I rewrote the lead to focus more on his NBL Canada career. Besides that, I changed the New York Post statement to say 'hyped as a "prodigy" by the New York Post' instead of 'labelled as a "prodigy" by the New York Post. That way the statement is more about the New York Post itself rather than a statement about Clinkscales' potential. I think this is more in line with the adjacent statements that focus on his national recognition rather than his ability. With regard to the gap, I thought it was covered well enough by what was already written ("with no indication that he joined any other team since his tenure with the BayHawks"). I think that should be just about everything. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 15:07, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I tried searching and couldn't find anything useful for the gap, either. Newspapers.com has nothing for him during the time, and filtering Google results for 2011-2013 is just bringing up the Juvenile Justice Information Exchange (which is apparently related to Kennesaw State University somehow) and then a blog post about him playing 1-on-1 against Jay Williams. I'm okay with accepting Steve Weinman, who holds a high-ranking position with a NBA team, as an acceptable source for basketball topics. That just leaves a run through to check reference formatting I want to do soon, and then determining if New York Post is an acceptable BLP reference for a FA. Any thoughts, Sandy? Hog Farm Talk 04:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I dunno; having a hard time with that one. On the one hand, it's a BLP, and we should never use a marginal source for a BLP. On the other hand, the information sourced is not sensitive, and NYPost is considered less reliable for NY politics and police; this is sports. We should try to develop a broader consensus on this one.
    But there are other things in that para I don't like. The NJ.com report never mentions Clinkscales; that sentence is synth-y and either a) should come out, or b) the nj.com citation should move to after the comma (it is citing the college level). And thereafter is an unnecessary additive. I agree with Graham and Tony1 on such unnecessary fillers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I've removed the "thereafter", moved the ref, and also took out one usage of "however". Hog Farm Talk 05:07, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Giants2008 do you have an opinion on the above query about using NY Post in a sports BLP? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Oopsie. Re-reading the FAC, I see Giant2008 was in there, and has already opined, as did Nikkimaria and others. So, if we keep the content now, we are only keeping that which passed FAC. I'd still feel better if we had broader consensus, as it is odd that nothing else comes up, even with a newspaper.com search. Maybe if we beg and send flowers or chocolate or something, Ealdgyth will give us a ruling. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hog Farm I am stymied at what declaration to enter here. I am a bit uncomfortable with the NY Post, and that was reinforced when I read Paige Bueckers. High school student with plenty of high school coverage. While Clinkscales was from the media heavy Northeast, and only the NY Post reported on him? No local coverage? Not sure what to do here, and whether the article would be adequate if all of NYPost was deleted. Would a post at RSN be out of order? Or would the result just be obvious ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is a fair assessment. The NY Post is his local coverage. I would think local coverage would be acceptable for information about his early life or personal life. Bueckers was also one of the best basketball prospects ever, while Clinkscales was relatively obscure. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 10:18, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, ha ... I was looking for more New Jersey coverage (because of the camp being in Teaneck), but you are correct that he was a New Yorker (and Teaneck is just across the GW bridge from NY). Your argument makes sense. I still wish we could get others to opine on this before we close it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:08, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've opened this at RSN, hopefully we can get some feedback from there. Hog Farm Talk 15:17, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Should we name the article in the RSN discussion? I'm not sure how RSN works best ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:23, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I have yet to read the full article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:23, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what to do either. I keep thinking "there has to be something", but even newspapers.com only brings up this from before 2004 (when his college career began), and all it says is that one publication said he might go to USF (South Florida). My gut is that we shouldn't be using NYPost here, but I seriously cannot find any coverage here for that time period of his life. Even filtering Google search results for 1996 to 2003 is just giving me this, which is only a passing mention of his Atlanta AAU team and doesn't cover anything not already in the article. My only guess is that online sports media may not have been as established in the late '90s/early oughts, but I'm seriously shocked at how little there is here. Hog Farm Talk 02:35, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SG

  • jargon ... "including a layup with four seconds left in regulation," ... regulation means what?
    • It's the standard time of the game (non-overtime). I read the sources and didn't see an indication of overtime, so I've replaced with "four second left in the game". Hog Farm Talk 14:58, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Still working; the article needs a copyedit, and I'm not the best, but in the absence of Z1720, giving it a go. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:27, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Must we have this in the lead? "A 6-foot-1-inch (1.85 m), 185-pound (84 kg) point guard,[1]" ... I recognize that height matters in basketball, but what a lot of formatting to absorb in the second sentence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:33, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've removed the weight, as a scan of several other sports bio FAs, including a couple basketball ones, did not show any with the weight in the lead. Since it's not in the body that I see, I've added the ref into the infobox Hog Farm Talk 15:53, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second para of the lead, jargon, what is a three-star recruit? "Several major college basketball programs showed interest in him as a three-star recruit." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Does "He was rated as a three-star recruit, and several major college basketball programs showed interest in him" work better? Hog Farm Talk 13:17, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second para of the lead, what are the Bayhawks, and soon after what (college)? "from 2004 to 2008 and joined the BayHawks soon after" SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:40, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second paragraph of the lead: all of this needs reworking, and I don't speak basket ball well enough to attempt it:
    For his entire college career, Clinkscales had a limited impact as a scorer despite his passing ability, becoming the fifth freshman at DePaul to pass for 100 assists. While most of his statistics stagnated over the years, he led NCAA Division I in assist-to-turnover ratio as a senior.
    Something like ????
    Clinkscales became the fifth freshman at DePaul to pass for 100 assists. During his college career, he had a limited impact as a scorer. While most of his statistics stagnated over his college years, he led NCAA Division I in assist-to-turnover ratio as a senior. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:44, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I've tagged "he had a limited impact as a scorer" as original research, as it's evidently Wikipedia-provided interpretation of statistics since this isn't supported in the body. Hog Farm Talk 14:46, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    This appears to have been addressed. Hog Farm Talk 13:17, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Starting this sentence with "as a professional" is awkward ... "As a professional, Clinkscales was selected in the 2008 NBA Development League Draft by the Erie BayHawks, where he played most of his D-League career. " --> ?? --> His professional career began when Clinkscales was selected ... ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:45, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article needs more copyediting than I should be attempting; Sportzeditz, I noticed your work at Paige_Bueckers; might you have a look in here? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:48, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • I looked through it again and made some changes. I don't see a whole lot. Keep in mind, except for the parts I added as part of this review, the rest of the article hasn't been edited much since it went through FAC. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 19:00, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • With this one having run for three months, hopefully we can push this across the line soon. I kept the official scorebook for my high school team several times, so while I've got a bit of familiarity with basketball its been several years and I'm a bit rusty. Hog Farm Talk 13:17, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I keep coming back here, hoping to get this one closed up, but issues persist.

  • MOS:NUMNOTES calls for consistency in whether digits or spelled out numbers are used within a list, but we have mixes going every which direction here. One style needs to be settled on and used consistently throughout. It is 7 starts and 12 assists, or seven starts and twelve assists, but not seven starts and 12 assists.
  • I can't decipher why this quote is in the article; what a missing? "The freshman commented, "The best thing I can do is pass. I really don't have to look at them (my team members). I just tell them to be ready."[17]"
    • I've tried to clarify a bit that this is Clinkscales describing his style of play. Hog Farm Talk 13:33, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Freshman, Sophomore, Junior and Senior are all one-paragraph sections; are the sections really needed? His college career is long past.
    • All one section now. Hog Farm Talk 13:33, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think it is much easier to read split-up. In practice, people might only want to read one specific year or one year at a time (potentially out of order), and those are both harder to do without the sub-sections. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 19:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is this in the article? The team welcomed incoming freshman, and the reigning Mr. Basketball of Michigan, Wilson Chandler.[24]
    • Removed, since Chandler doesn't play any other role in the article this seems to just be a name-drop. Hog Farm Talk 19:17, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Three-pointer" is jargon, and there doesn't seem to be an article to wikilink to.
    • Linked to Three-point field goal. I'm not sure if an inline gloss is necessary, as it is pretty much exactly what the name suggests. It could be rephrased to "three-point shot" if needed, I guess. Hog Farm Talk 13:37, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't tell what this sentence means, and it seems out of place in the flow ? Clinkscales came off the bench to help the team extend their two-point lead with under eight minutes left in regulation to 12 points at the end of the game.
    • I've boldly removed this entire sentence, as I do not think this detail is really, truly significant. Hog Farm Talk 19:17, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The beginning of the article uses unspaced WP:EMDASHES (in the summer of 1996, Clinkscales—standing 4 ft 8 in (1.42 m)—was noticed); later on, the article uses spaced WP:ENDASHES (with Villanova, as he finished with 11 assists – the most he would record as a senior.) Pick one, check throughout.
    • Fixed. I think there were a only few instances of dashes used in this manner in general. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 19:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have a sense of reading through endless stats about his college and early career years, rather than highlights and important points.
    • He wasn't a good player in those years, so he didn't have many highlights. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 19:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is everything in the lead contained within the article? I couldn't find it all, but haven't gotten through the entire article. The stats are causing me to glaze over.
    • Date of birth and height are in the lead and nowhere else, while uniform number and weight are in the infobox but nowhere else. From what I've seen, weight generally isn't mention in athlete bio articles, so it can be removed most likely. Hog Farm Talk 19:29, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've added the dob into the article body and have removed weight from the infobox as it's not all that relevant for basketball and is probably not accurate anymore. Not sure where best to work in height or uniform number. Hog Farm Talk 15:24, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:03, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Sportsfan77777: - Any chance you'd be able to finish off the last few of these? Hog Farm Talk 13:27, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I addressed the remaining points. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 19:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, I guess with a similar rationale as to Wikipedia:Featured article review/Quatermass and the Pit/archive1. Not our finest FA, but not an embarrassment either. As to the heavy amounts of stats - I haven't been able to find a whole lot that could be used instead, although I'm not familiar with basketball sources and where to find them. He didn't have a flashy career, and his style of play wasn't all that flashy either, so I imagine this is one of those subjects that is by nature going to be stats heavy. Hog Farm Talk 17:19, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, with notes. I think the article suffers from some "too much detail", especially with the "College career" section, and I would probably summarise this information more effectively. I also think "Professional career" suffers from MOS:OVERSECTION, as sections contain one paragraph, and I would merge some of these sections together (and perhaps remove some overly detailed prose). After conducting some MOS fixes, my thoughts are this article, in its current form wouldn't be bad enough for me to bring it to FAR so I'm OK with closing this as keep. Z1720 (talk) 14:17, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, with an I guess as per Hog Farm. Not a stellar FA, but not something I would bring to FAR. I'd not suggest choosing to re-run this on the mainpage. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:10, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agree about TFA, this isn't the quality of FA I'd like to see be run on the main page. Hog Farm Talk 00:18, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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