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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 May 2022 [1].

Zufar ibn al-Harith al-Kilabi edit

Nominator(s): Al Ameer (talk) 07:46, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Zufar ibn al-Harith al-Kilabi, a 7th-century Bedouin chief. He backed the Umayyad Caliphate's main challenger, Ibn al-Zubayr, when the Umayyads were on the brink of collapse. His Qaysi warriors were annihilated by their tribal enemies, the Kalb, who supported the Umayyads. Zufar led the Qaysi survivors in rebellion, and on a years-long vendetta against the Kalb and their Yaman confederates. He surrendered, mainly on his terms, securing for himself and the Qays a major stake in the Umayyad state. The vendetta, meanwhile, played out for decades as a bloody competition for power, which eventually tore apart the Umayyad state from within. Started article in 2016, it passed GA last year, and I have improved it since. Believe it meets FA criteria now. Al Ameer (talk) 07:46, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass (t · c) buidhe 08:29, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Constantine edit

Will review during the following days. Constantine ✍ 16:53, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • As usual, I made some copyedits. Feel free to revert/discuss.
Early career
  • Presumably Zufar was born in Basra? Could this be made clear?
    • No information on where he was born; it's more probable (though I have no source to back this) that he was already a child or young adult when he moved to Basra, which was established in the late 630s, as he is named as an elder (in Arab tribal terms, this meant forty years or older) at the Battle of the Camel in 656. The sources also do not mention when he and his father settled in the city, though one can assume this happened around the time Basra was established as his father is already mentioned as a commander in the 630s-Iraqi-Jaziran conquest. Al Ameer (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • I suspected as much. Your solution works for me.
  • Could we add that many of the Kilab/Amr settled in Basra as a garrison town? Otherwise the link with pre-Islamic Arabia is unclear.
    • Revised, though I wish I had a source that offered more details. Al Ameer (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Looks good as it is.
  • Can 'nose rein' be linked to Nose ring (animal) or is it something else?
Rebellion against the Umayyads
  • the district they dominated IIRC, this domination was because they were the most numerous Arab tribe there, right? I would make this clear.
    • Tweaked to "predominated". Does this work grammatically? Al Ameer (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • 'in the district they numerically predominated' perhaps?
  • Not sure whether the Qays-Yaman rivalry can be described as 'benign', even before it became bloody. Perhaps 'non-violent'? Or even strike the 'previously benign' comment entirely, since by opening a 'bloody phase', it is established that previously that was not the case.
    • Removed "benign". No room in this article, but the rivalry may not have even existed before Marj Rahit, or if it did, it was a Kalb–Qays rivalry. There are credible historians who point out rightly that the Kalb (the preeminent 'Yamani' tribe) and its wider Quda'a group had not considered themselves Yamani before this battle. The 'true' Yamani tribes, who were concentrated in Homs, actually fought with the Qays against Kalb at Marj Rahit, as did the Judham, who also became a major component of the 'Yaman'. At some point between that battle and the end of the second civil war, these hitherto unrelated tribes joined forces as the Yaman alliance, and these alignments (Yaman and Qays/Mudar) soon after spread among the tribal groups in Iraq and Khurasan as well. Before the battle, it is probable that foundations for the Yamani alliance were already established in Syria between the Kalb, Tanukh, Kinda, Tayy, and Ghassan, all of which came together to secure Umayyad rule and fought together at Marj Rahit. Al Ameer (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for the explanation.
  • The Qaysi vanguard is not mentioned before.
    • Revised. By 'no longer head of the Qaysi vanguard', what I meant is that Zufar, now mostly preoccupied defending his fortress from Umayyad assaults, was no longer leading the Qaysi tribesmen in their raids and on the field. This 'command', so-to-speak, was taken up by Umayr. Let me know if the revised wording better conveys this. Al Ameer (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before entering Iraq, Abd al-Malik resolved to suppress Zufar and the Qays in the Jazira either here, or when Zufar's capture of Qarqisiya is mentioned, it might be a good idea to stress the strategic importance of the city as controlling the passage from Syria into Mesopotamia and vice versa, a role it already had during the Roman-Persian Wars.
    • Agree. Could not find this exact language but added alternative information, i.e. that it was strategically situated and between Iraq and Syria. If you have a source which supports the proposed language, please add or point it out to me. Al Ameer (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • My proposal was by way of comment, not necessary to include it as it is. Had a look at my sources, but couldn't find anything much different to what you already included.
Reconciliation with the Umayyads
  • Abd al-Malik accepted their counsel, but could not dislodge Zufar does this mean that attacks were launched against Qarqisiya? Then this should be made explicit. Right now it is only implied.
  • By the end of the summer can we add the year? It is unclear whether we are still in 691.
  • effectively broke the Yamani monopoly on the Syrian army At the risk of violating WP:SS, can you briefly mention the implications of this?
    • Working on this. Al Ameer (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Cplakidas: Elaborated a little, let me know if it makes sense to elaborate further on the subsequent nature of the Qays–Yaman rivalry (i.e. years of competition for power and influence in the provinces and resumption of bloodshed in Syria during the Third Muslim Civil War). Also, I found in P. Crone (1994) that Maslama's favoritism of the Qaysi troops in the army during the push to conquer Constantinople in 716–718 helped seal the still developing Qays–Yaman enmity. Don’t know if that should be mentioned here and/or in Maslama's article. Your thoughts are welcome. Al Ameer (talk) 19:41, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Al Ameer son: No, I think it is besides the scope here. However, I would add a comment to From then on, the Umayyad caliphs attempted to balance Qaysi–Yamani interests in the army to the effect that these tensions were not well balanced, and ultimately contributed to the downfall of the Umayyad caliphate. Otherwise the changes look good.
Sources
  • All sources are high-quality, scholarly sources, including several standard reference works.
  • OCLC for Caskel 1966

That's it. A nice, well-written, well-referenced article, as usual. Constantine ✍ 15:39, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cplakidas: Thanks for taking the time to review. Most of the points have been addressed, though a couple may require your review. Still working on the last point under 'Reconciliation with the Umayyads'. Al Ameer (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Al Ameer son: Apart from the one comment above, which is a suggestion, I am quite satisfied with the changes. At this pint, I support making this well-written article into FA. Constantine ✍ 12:53, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

  • Not a source review but why is footnote 44, Ibn Hazm, formatted differently from all the others?
    • I don’t have access to it but I removed it, as the information it supports is not very important. Al Ameer (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cobb and Donner lack a publisher location.
  • "The Qays of Qinnasrin resented being under the authority of a Kalbi in the district they predominated": for clarity I think this would have to be "in which they predominated", but even then it's not instantly clear who "they" refers to. Suggest "The Qays of Qinnasrin, who were the predominate tribe in Syria, resented being under the authority of a Kalbi, and, under Zufar's leadership, expelled Sa'id".
  • Is it "Kalb" or "Kalbi"? The article seems to use both.
    • Kalb is the noun and Kalbi is the adjective. Same with Qays and Qaysi, Taghlib and Taghlibi, Yaman and Yamani. I hope I have fixed all instances where the adjective form should have been used. Al Ameer (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Battle of Marj Rahit opened a bloody phase in the Qays–Yaman rivalry": we have not mentioned the Yamani to this point or explained who they are or what this rivalry is. Similarly there is a later mention of the "Umayyad-Yamani cause" that is unexplained.
    • Added an explanation. Let me know if this suffices or if I should expand on it further. Al Ameer (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In about 686 Zufar is "replaced as the battlefield commander of the Qays by Umayr", and yet he is later described as the "head of the Qays" -- these two facts seem to be in conflict; who could remove him if he's the head?
    • Constantine raised the same issue above. I hope it’s clearer now. Zufar remained the preeminent head of the Qays in the Syria–Jazira region, but being busy fending off the Umayyads at Qarqisiya, his role as leader of the Qaysi raiding parties against the Kalb was filled by Umayr. Al Ameer (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Umayr had commanded a brigade in Ibn Ziyad's army, but defected during or after the battle." After looking at the dates I realized that this happened before any of the events mention in the ayyam tribal feuds section. When you introduce Umayr in that section you don't mention his history with ibn Ziyad. I think it would be less confusing for uninformed readers like me to give a brief mention of his defection in the earlier section, and remove it from the later section. Alternatively, since Marwan's accession is implicitly covered in the first part of the section, where you mention the deaths of Yazid and Mu'awiya II, you could cover the first assault against Qarqisya at that point, keeping things more chronological. Do we know the date of Aban ibn al-Walid's battle against Zufar? From his article it seems to have been c. 688/689.
    • I took your alternative suggestion and revised accordingly. As for the date of Aban's offensive, it was in the source used and I just added it to the article. Al Ameer (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Yamani monopoly on the Syrian army": I don't know what this refers to.
    • Revised wording to "domination". The Kalb/Yaman were the most powerful element or core of the Umayyad army in the years between Marj Rahit and the reconciliation with Zufar. Al Ameer (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall the article is in good shape and readable. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:39, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Al Ameer son ? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:59, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Gentlemen, please excuse the delay. I have most of these done on another device (long story) but they are unsaved. Will have them all completed and saved by this Monday/Tuesday. Al Ameer (talk) 17:40, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike Christie: Thank you for taking the time to review the article and for your recommendations. Please let me know how we are looking now and if any more needs to be done. Al Ameer (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The above fixes all look good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:16, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Funk edit

  • Seems this is missing a review, so I'll have a look soonish. FunkMonk (talk) 16:43, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any photos of relevant buildings or drawings of battles or such that could be shown?
    • I will look into some images. Wish we had some of Circesium (Qarqisiya), and it’s a negative on battle drawings because of the lack of available details about troop movements, etc. It may be helpful to create a map showing various sites (if they’re identifiable) where the Qays and Kalb tribes fought their battles in Syro-Mesopotamia. Otherwise, I will look into adding a map of the major battles of the Second Fitna, which includes the multiple Umayyad sieges of Zufar in Qarqisiya. Al Ameer (talk) 03:33, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Added the Second Fitna map for now. The map of the ayyam battles is going to be a more complicated project, but will add it when it is done. Al Ameer (talk) 14:57, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure what the standards are, but any reason for all the diacritics in the name field of the infobox?
    • Removed (I believe they are generally discouraged). Al Ameer (talk) 14:57, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know where he was born or where his family was originally from?
    • We know the Banu Kilab/Banu Amir were traditionally based in the southwestern Najd, which I have now added to the article, and that the Amr division was based in a more specific area of this region (between protected pasture grounds known as the Hima Dariyya and a place called Damkh), but the latter is too specific and not pertinent. As for his family, in particular, or where he was born, all we know from the sources is that his father took part in the conquest of Iraq and that Zufar was based in Basra before migrating to the Jazira (western Upper Mesopotamia) and Qinnasrin (northern Syria). Al Ameer (talk) 14:57, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Qays in the article body.
  • Link Aid.
  • "Zufar expressed his grief in verse" Anything to quote?
    • Frustratingly, no. At least I have not been able to find it. Had I made my mother proud by being literate in Arabic, I may have been able to find it in the available Arabic primary sources. Al Ameer (talk) 14:33, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Feel you with the literacy, hehe... FunkMonk (talk) 13:08, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Al Ameer son, FunkMonk, I know no Arabic at all, but the Arabic Wikipedia article on him appears (per Google Translate) to have a section of his poetry. I don't know if that's sourceable. I would link to it but it appears not to work when I try; however you can click on the language link in the left sidebar of the English article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:27, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Mike Christie: Great find, and right in front of me the whole time. These are definitely the verses that our WP English version alludes to (Banu Jusham is a branch of the Taghlib tribe, which killed Umayr ibn al-Hubab). Unfortunately, the poetry section of WP Arabic article appears to be the only information that is not sourced. I have reached out to the user who added it in 2014 and hope he responds with the source. Otherwise, all I have is that Dixon (1970) writes, in regards to Umayr's death, "Zufar was moved to sorrow and expressed this in sad verses" and cites Baladhuri's Ansab, Vol V, p. 325. @Iylaq: Would you be able to help verify that the verses of Zufar mentioned in his Arabic Wikipedia article are to be found in the Ansab? Al Ameer (talk) 20:57, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Their will be no peace" Really their, or there?
  • "Zufar died in c. 694–695" Any cause known?
    • Presumably, old age or sickness, since it would have been mentioned if he was killed. Unfortunately, these details are not available. It took me until very recently to find the year of his death. Al Ameer (talk) 14:33, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The estate was near the residence of Abd al-Malik's son Maslama" He seems to be already linked earlier.
    • Yes, but in this second case, I linked to a subsection of Maslama ibn Abd al-Malik that I felt was relevant. If you believe this is unnecessary, I’m not opposed to deleting the link. Al Ameer (talk) 14:33, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Mesopotamia?
Changes look good, only this last one unaddressed? FunkMonk (talk) 13:08, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, missed that one. Al Ameer (talk) 20:57, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - looks good to me, if those poems can be found it will of course be a bonus. FunkMonk (talk) 08:51, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Al Ameer son: https://al-maktaba.org/book/9773/2562 this is his poem in ansab al baladhuri. I think zufar's poetry in this ansab is not as much as in the Arabic Wikipedia version Iylaq (talk) 11:12, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Iylaq: Thank you for the link and quick response, Are you able to translate the verse from Ansab? Google translate offers this, which I tweaked with my elementary skills:

Except, O eye of Judy [?], with a spill... and crying for Asim and Ibn al-Habbab [I assume Zufar is saying in this line that he sheds tears for Umayr ibn al-Habbab and another Qaysite chief named Asim]

If you win, you will kill Umayr... and a group of those who are rich in spears

Banu Jusham ibn Bakr [a branch of Taglib] was annihilated... and their tigers were knights of dogs

We killed two hundred of them with patience... but this did not do justice to Umayr ibn al-Habbab

So our dead are considered honorable... and their dead are counted with the dogs

  • during the battle against Aban ibn al-Walid, one of Zufar's sons was killed. does the source mention the name of the son of Zufar? Iylaq (talk) 11:12, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Ibn Asakir's Tarikh Madina Dimashq, Waki ​​ibn Zufar witnessed the Battle of Marj Rahit with Dahhak ibn Qays and was killed in the same battle. can the source be added (the source is in Arabic) and do modern historians mention Waki ​​ibn Zufar? Iylaq (talk) 11:12, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have not seen him mentioned anywhere in modern, English-language sources. This reliable German source (Rotter), however, clearly mentions Waki as being the son of Zufar ibn al-Harith in the index of the book, pointing to page 209: [2]. And yes, it is notable enough for inclusion in the article, especially since he died in the same battle that drove Zufar and his partisans into their long war of revenge. @Cplakidas:@AhmadLX: Sirs, do either of you have access to this source, Die Umayyaden ... and could provide what Rotter says of Zufar's son Waki, from page 209? I could not find it in the 'snippet' version linked here. @Iylaq: Otherwise, to include this bit (or the poem above from Ansab for that matter), please provide the editor (if any), the year, publisher and page numbers of these editions of the Ansab and Tarikhat Madinat Dimashq. Al Ameer (talk) 15:51, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I only have parts of that book which, unfortunately, do include this page. However, in the snippet view it can be seen that "...a son of Zufar, named Waki, allegedly died in that attack". Hope that helps. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 19:01, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks to all for the great team effort! @AhmadLX: That snippet is all I need for this one—will add now. Al Ameer (talk) 00:49, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Al Ameer son: I got the source from google, only in Arabic, and accompanied by the title of the book, location, year, publisher and author. from google books. maybe zufar's poetry in this google books source is more complete. [3] Iylaq (talk) 01:26, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Just two issues:

  • Hawting is the editor of The History of al-Ṭabarī, but you cite him rather than a chapter; is he the author of a chapter in this work that could or should be identified, as you do with Pellat? Same question for Humphreys and Powers.
    • In the case of The History of al-Tabari, this is mainly a primary source, the work of history by the 10th-century historian al-Tabari. The work was translated (or re-translated) into English in 39 volumes, each of which was edited and annotated by different authors. All of volume 20 was edited/annotated by Hawting, same for Powers and Humphreys with respect to volumes 24 and 25, respectively. Pellat, on the other hand, is the author of an entry in the Encyclopedia of Islam (2nd ed.) Al Ameer (talk) 14:25, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • You use Wellhausen quite a bit; is there nothing more recent that covers the same material?
    • Wellhausen is an old source, and yet this work in particular, is still one of the crucial authorities on the subject, especially regarding the tribal feuds of the 680s/690s. Nonetheless, I tried to reduce references to him by using Dixon, whose work cited here repeats as well as counters Wellhausen's, since it is more recent (1970 v early 20th c.). If you allow me a week, I could trim reliance on Wellhausen further. Al Ameer (talk) 14:25, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:28, 12 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy with the answers; this is a pass. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:09, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note -- Hi Al Ameer, can you cite the table of descendants? Several names are mentioned/referenced in the article text but by no means all... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:01, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ian Rose: I have added footnotes with citations for those figures who are notable enough, and close or relevant enough in kinship, for the chart, but not mentioned in the article body. Let me know if sufficient. Al Ameer (talk) 21:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That helps but I still don't see mentions/refs in the text for Nufayl and Khuwaylid, or have I missed something...? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:13, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Ian Rose: The note (b) mentions the genealogy of Amr (father of Yazid and Zur'a): Amr ibn Khuwaylid 'al-Sa'iq' ibn Nufayl ibn Amr ibn Kilab, with citation. Should I add the citations to Khuwaylid and Nufayl, specifically, or does this note suffice? Al Ameer (talk) 19:35, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well again, the current note doesn't tell me that we have a source for the genealogy from Amr ibn Kilab to Amr, it just tells me that Amr fathered Yazid and Zur'a. How did you arrive at this overall family tree? I'd have hoped the whole thing was gleaned from one source that could be cited. If not then I'd like to know which individual reliable sources were used to determine who sired whom... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:03, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this tree had to be constructed from different sources, all cited in the article; it's a doozy:
  • Zufar's sons as shown in the chart (except for Waki) and grandsons are sourced to Crone 1980, p. 108
  • Waki is sourced to Rotter 1982, p. 109
  • Rabab and her marriage to the Umayyad prince Maslama ibn Abd al-Malik to Dixon 1971, pp. 94–95
  • Zufar's brother Aws to Dixon 1971, p. 102
  • Zufar's father al-Harith ibn Yazid to Crone 1980, p. 108—this 'Yazid' is Yazid ibn al-Sa'iq, according to Sezgin 1975, p. 219 (While Yazid is commonly known as 'Yazid ibn al-Sa'iq', al-Sa'iq actually refers to the nickname of his grandfather Khuwaylid, who was so-called because he was supposedly killed by a strike of lightning or sa'iq in Arabic, see Lyall 1918, p. 325. Yazid's father's name was actually Amr, see Lyall 1918, p. 325, where he is spelled 'Yazid b. Amr b. Khuwailid', and Caskel 1966, p. 176 where he is spelled 'Amr b. Huwailid—it was not uncommon among the Arabs then to be more popularly known as the sons of their grandfathers especially if the latter were especially notable.
  • Among Amr's many other sons, besides Yazid, was Zur'a (see Caskel 1966, p. 458 where it is spelled 'Zur'a b. (Amr b.) as-Sa'iq', and Crone 1980, p. 138), who is only listed in this chart because his son Aslam ibn Zur'a al-Kilabi is mentioned in the article as one of Zufar's clansmen to have settled in Basra, where he acted as a tribal leader of the Qays and served office. Aslam's son Sa'id ibn Aslam al-Kilabi and grandson Muslim ibn Sa'id al-Kilabi were also one-time officeholders, and thus notable enough for inclusion in the chart, or so I determined. Aslam ibn Zur'a, his son and grandson are all sourced to Crone 1980, p. 138.
  • Khuwaylid ibn Nufayl, a chief of the Amr branch of the Kilab (see Caskel 1966, p. 350, where it is spelled 'Huwailid b. Nufail'), is, as mentioned above, the grandfather of Yazid and Zur'a. This 'Nufayl' is named as the father of Khuwaylid but he is also the progenitor of one of the Amr branch's two main divisions, the Nufayl, the other being Abu Awf, see Krenkow, p. 1005 (just added to article).
  • Note: While listing Zufar's ancestors up to Nufayl may seem excessive, it helps illustrate his place and that of his progeny in the aristocracy of his tribe. I have now added footnotes with citations to Khuwaylid and Nufayl in the chart. Al Ameer (talk) 21:03, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, that should do it...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:18, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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