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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Wilfred Arthur/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Hog Farm via FACBot (talk) 28 March 2023 [1].

Wilfred Arthur edit

Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article has been around a long time: I took it to MilHist A-Class 10 years ago but was never really happy with it. I've now given it a complete overhaul, expanding by more than a third and correcting several errors, and feel it's ready for the bronze star.

Fellow ace of the recently nominated Alan Rawlinson, Wilf Arthur had an even more eventful air force career, becoming at 24 the RAAF's youngest group captain (equivalent of full colonel in the army), barely escaping with his life in a runway collision, and playing a key role in the "Morotai Mutiny" of 1945. Oh yes, the RAAF in World War II had it all: aces, Victoria Crosses, petty squabbling at the highest levels, and mutiny! Dive in and let me know what you think... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Unlimitedlead edit

@Ian Rose: It is wonderful to see a FA nomination from you, and I will give comments over the next few days. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:01, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Citations generally should not go in the lede, and seeing as the same information is repeated in the body, I would remove the lede citations.
    • There's a slight difference in that the lead mentions/cites his most common nickname and in the main body I list/cite all of them, but I might be able to effectively combine them in the main body -- let me see...
  • "after Australia declared war in September 1939" A little vague: I recommend mentioning which specific war this was.
    • I mention World War II in the preceding paragraph.
I still think the phrasing is odd. "Declared" implies that Australia specifically declared war against one or more nations, and while this may be true, I think something like "joined the war" would be more appropriate. Unlimitedlead (talk) 14:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, done so. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "son of stock inspector Stanley Oswald Darley Arthur" Is this an instance of false title?
    • It fits the definition but it's pretty standard usage in Australian English (whereas I know it ends to be frowned upon in BritEng).

More to follow shortly. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Helena Elizabeth Chaffers-Welsh, who was born on the Isle of Wight" Is this relevant/necessary?
    • I think it's common to give parents' background in bios. I could simplify to "English" or "English-born" if you prefer.
  • "His early education was by correspondence" With whom?
    • That's a fair question, the source doesn't specify. I'm not averse to just taking it out if you think best.
  • "he also excelled in sports" Do we know which sports specifically?
    • I think I could expand on that, yes.
  • "Arthur was promoted to flying officer on 3 September" Do we know why?
    • No specific reason is given; it was standard for a new recruit to be raised to that rank after 12–18 months as a pilot officer.
  • "No. 3 Squadron eventually re-located to Sidi Haneish in Egypt on 12 April, having retreated 500 miles (800 km) and operated from nine airfields in ten days" Is there supposed to be a comma before "and"?
    • I'm not sure about that, I think it works better without...
  • Link Anglican?
    • Fair enough.
  • "not released until a ransom was paid—reportedly an Olivetti typewriter" What does this mean? Was he released in exchange for this typewriter?
    • This is how the newspaper source puts it. There is another news report that states the ransom was medical supplies, I could add that.

The article looks like a fine one to me; I will allow someone else more proficient in millitary terminology to give it a more thorough run-through. Unlimitedlead (talk) 01:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, Unlimitedlead! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:03, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Everything looks fine; I have given one response. Unlimitedlead (talk) 14:17, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I think all done now. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:00, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild edit

Recusing to review.

  • Possibly inform readers which country the Isle of Wight is/was in?
    • Can do, or per my reply to Unlimitedlead above, maybe simply refer to her as "English" or "English-born"?
  • "Luftwaffe" is these days considered a normal English word. If you wish to treat it as a German word, it needs to be in a lang template.
    • You know I think had it without italics when I took to ACR back in the day and then I changed it when re-visiting the article lately -- happy to drop the italics again.
  • "the Germans launched their offensive in March". Perhaps "their" → 'an'?
    • Okay.
  • "the Allied aircraft encountered twenty Messerschmitts". Is it known how many were 109s and how many 110s?
    • I'll double-check one or two other sources but the current one just uses the generic.
  • "Stuka" needs a lang template.
    • Okay.

And that is all I have. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:08, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for stopping by Gog. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 18:06, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SC edit

IB
  • Shouldn't it be "Group captain", rather than "Group Captain"?
    • Yeah, a bit iffy this one. Sentence case would prevail in the main body but in an infobox I see it as more like a service record statement, and then it's usually proper case.
Early life
  • "swimming, athletics and shooting.[3][5] Known by his father's forename in youth, Arthur later gained an array of appellations including "Bandy", "Wilf", "Wolf",[5] and "Wulf",[8]": no serial comma followed in the next list by the presence of one: I won't point out the subsequent ones, but it should, of course, be consistent throughout.
    • Fair enough, I'll go through and try to keep consistent one way or t'other.
Middle East
  • "re-located" is shown as one word in the OED, although AusEng use may differ
  • Ditto for "re-joined"
    • I'm pretty sure AusEng is okay with hyphenating.
South-West Pacific
  • "advancing on the Philippiness" typo, I presume?
    • Bloody hell, I presume too...!

That's it – all rather small little quibbles. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:22, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Harry edit

Hey Ian, always enjoy reading your RAAF bios!

  • A (very) brief description of the Morotai Mutiny would be helpful in the lead.
    • I've had a go, see what you think.
  • son of stock inspector Stanley That's a false title; whether or not it's a problem depends on your point of view
    • It seems pretty common in AusEng, certainly in several of my sources.
  • According to Mark Johnston who is Johnston that his opinions are relevant? I know he's linked but don't force the reader to click away.
    • Sure -- done (although you are giving me the excuse for another false title)...!
  • military unjustifiable operations → militarily?
    • Well spotted -- done.
  • Anything known about his wife/married life?
    • The sources don't give much more info and I feel we have a fair amount, i.e. wife's name/nationality, where they met/married, children...

That's it from me, and that's being extra pedantic to find something to criticise! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:13, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks as always Harry! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 18:30, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, obviously. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:20, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

This looks good in terms of the Supports / pending Supports and has had an image review. Does it need a Source review - I'm a little rusty on this? Assuming it does, I'd be pleased to undertake it. Can have it done by the weekend at the latest. KJP1 (talk) 17:59, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This could certainly do with a source review if you've a mind, thanks! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 18:07, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Review complete - and passed
Criteria - well-researched / consistent citations
  • Yes.
Quality - Reliability / High quality
  • I'm not an expert in this space but, for me, the sources used look to be of high quality, with reputable publishers, include recent scholarship in addition to some of the older "standard" works such as the official war history, and, as far as I can tell, comprehensively cover the article subject. Given the main author's experience, I am confident that the best sources will have been deployed.
Source checks - Verifiability / Spot checks
Spot checks
Many moons ago, the late BB told me I didn't need to list cites I'd spot-checked if there weren't issues. More recently, it was suggested that including these was helpful, to allow the check to be replicated etc. I can see the logic of that and have done so here. The ones with queries, very few, are self-evident. KJP1 (talk) 15:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for this, KJP1. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:31, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • General
  • National Archives of Australia (Cites 3/34/42/45ab/71/74) - Unfortunately, none of the links to the NAA material, specifically Arthur's Personnel file and the Record Books, are working for me. I get either Timeout or Refusal to connect messages. I'm satisfied I have enough sources that I can do an appropriate spot-check without them, but if they don't work for me, they likely won't work for, at least some, others. I don't know if anything can be done with these?
  • That's odd, naturally I double-checked all the links in the References section before submitting for FAC and they all worked for me, including the items from the National Archives. I've just re-checked and they still work for me. There are items at the National Archives you need to be logged in (as a guest at least) to access, but the operations books and personnel files are not in that basket, so in theory anyone should be able to get at them...
It is odd. I’ve now tried two iPads, my iPhone, a laptop and my desktop pc. None of them can connect to the NAA sources. Above my pay grade, I’m afraid. KJP1 (talk) 22:25, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if SchroCat or Harry could try the National Archives reference links when they revisit... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:19, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can't get to the online links either - that's either from here or going via a Canadian proxy that I sometimes use. It may be that the NAA online access is limited to Australia? No other idea, I'm afraid. In terms of visiting: I don't get to the National Archives in Kew much - my researches are more at the British Library I'm afraid... - SchroCat (talk) 11:47, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SchroCat, HJ Mitchell - I suspect SchroCat's right and that it's a geolocation issue. If Harry can't get in either... But coming back here does give Schro and Harry the opportunity to formally record their Supports! KJP1 (talk) 12:11, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Would be my guess as well. I can't access it either. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:12, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've given my support already - a bit further up! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:26, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry guys! My bad. KJP1 (talk) 13:17, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Tks guys. Curiouser and curiouser, I just tried using a UK proxy and it worked for me... Under other circumstances I'd assume I was permanently logged in or something but I don't actually have an NAA ID, I only ever log in as a guest and that's a very temporary thing, so I don't think that's it. I'm happy to look further into this with the NAA when this nom closes, and of course if anyone wants a snapshot of a page to spotcheck in the meantime I can arrange that. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:58, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ian - no need for copies, I'm absolutely fine with the good number of sources I was able to check. It's just a pity for those readers that might want to delve further into the source material but can't. KJP1 (talk) 13:17, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Book sources - Again, I don't have direct access to these, but I'm satisfied that the online sources, including the book sources where you've helpfully given PDFs, give me enough to go on.
  • Specific
  • Cite 1 - Y
  • Cite 2a - ? - This is used to support the first sentence of Early Life. However, I can't see anything in the source that covers the content, i.e. Arthur's parentage. Is it needed here?
  • You're right, Garrisson adds nothing here, will remove.
  • Cites 2bik- Y
  • Cite 4 - Y
  • Cite 5a - Y (it actually also supports details of his parents, except mother's full name, see 2/3 above)
  • Would you say that any action is required here?
Nope!
  • Cites 5fil - Y
  • Cite 6 - Y
  • Cite 7 - Y
  • Cites 12ac - Y
  • Cite 25 - Y
  • Cite 36 - Y
  • Cite 40 - Y
  • Cite 41c - Y
  • Cites 43ab - Y
  • Cites 55ab - Y? - The archive checks out fine, though the original doesn't work for me.
  • I have to admit I only ensured the archived links worked, partly because I've often found that the original link was never updated and only the archive would work.
  • Cite 63 - Y
  • Cites 65de - Y
  • Cite 67 - Y
  • Cite 73 - Y
  • Cite 79 - Y
  • Cite 80 - Y
  • Cites 82ab - Y
  • Cite 83 - Y
  • Cite 84 - Y
  • Cite 85 - Y
  • Cite 86 - Y? - The archive checks out fine, though the original takes me to Page not found.
  • Cite 87 - Y? - As above, archive copy is fine, but link to original doesn't work for me.
  • Cite 88 - Y
Summary - With the exception of 2a, which was minor anyway and Ian's already addressed, all the sources I could check out on the spot-check were absolutely on the button.
Formatting
  • ISBNs - I don't think (?) it's an FA requirement, but we have a mix of 10-digit and 13-digit ISBNs. They are also set out in slightly different formats, i.e. they are hyphenated in different ways. Personally, I think consistency is desirable, i.e. either 10 or 13 digits and in a consistent way e.g. 978-1-454-17352-1. Or any other way that you may prefer.
  • I try to always use 13-digit ISBNs if available in the relevant edition, but if they only have 10-digit ones then I'll use that and not run the convertor to update them to 13-digit. That said, I'm happy to double-check that that is in fact what I've done consistently.
Ian - I can see the logic and, as I say, it's not a criteria requirement, so very happy to go with your preferred approach. KJP1 (talk) 18:16, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for encouraging me to check these, I found in two cases I was using a 10-digit ISBN when a 13-digit was available in my edition. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:04, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kirtsen Alexander, Clive Caldwell - The ISBN is taking me to the 2007 e-book version on Worldcat. The 2006 print copy is given as 978-1-741-14705-6 here, [2]. I'm not sure which one's been used?
  • It was an online version, will double-check the relevant ISBN.
  • I've double-checked the online edition I used and it is 2006. I'm now using the 13-digit ISBN from that one though. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:04, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wilfred Arthur, Interview - I wonder if it would be helpful to give the full name of the interviewer, Edward Stokes, as detailed in the transcript. I got a bit confused with Ed Stokes, thinking initially that it meant Editor Stokes.
  • Quite right -- done.
  • Mark Johnston, Whispering Death - Here, you've not blue-linked the publisher but elsewhere, e.g. Alexander above, you have. There are other examples, e.g. the National Archives are both linked and not. I think they should be consistent, one way or another.
  • What I try to do is link each publisher (assuming wiki-notable) on first use, as we would in the lead or body -- I think I've been consistent doing that?
Ah, link on first mention. Understood and makes sense. NFA. KJP1 (talk) 18:13, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lex McAulay, Against Four Enemies - the isbn here is taking me to a different book on Worldcat, albeit by the same author, titled Anzac to Zentsuji : the military career of Colonel Jack Scanlan DSO, MID, [3]. Not sure why?
  • Again, will double-check my Kindle edition.
  • I copied and pasted the ISBN from my edition onto the current and it's the same so I'm afraid I don't know why the WorldCat entry comes up wrong... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:04, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alan Stephens, The Royal Australian Air Force - The location is given as London. It's OUP and Worldcat says Oxford/Melbourne, which sounds more likely?
  • This one is a hard copy in my collection, will check.
  • South Melbourne to be exact per my hard copy -- tks for spotting! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 20:57, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:48, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Overall Very happy to pass the Source Review. The "issues" I found are minor and Ian is already addressing them. My inability to access the National Australian Archive is a pity, but not essential for these purposes. It would be good, however, if another UK-based editor could try them, to confirm that they work for them. Then I'll know it's my tech that's at fault! A grand article, Ian, and I look forward to its passing. KJP1 (talk) 18:10, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much KJP1, that was quite a bit of work for you and I appreciate it. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:04, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Zawed edit

  • This review may be a bit redundant in light of the supports above, but surely another couldn't hurt...
  • Lead: ...Arthur enlisted in the Air Force the day...: why not use RAAF instead of Air Force?
  • Lead: ...following his discharge from the Air Force after the war,...: ditto
    • "Air Force" was for variation but I don't mind "RAAF" in those spots -- done.
  • Middle East: Arthur was among a detachment of six pilots deployed to Cyprus...: link Cyprus?
    • Generally don't link countries but as this was British Cyprus at the time I've linked to that -- tks for making me check!
  • South-West Pacific: (i.e. Pretends not to be): I wonder if it is worthwhile to add [sic] after Pretends; I assume the emphasis is in the original source?
    • The source (Johnston) presents it as I have, without [sic], so I thought best leave as is.
  • South-West Pacific: Not sure if it is a thing for you or not, but the cites are out of order here: and took charge of No. 2 OTU on 3 August.[65][14]
    • That was inadvertent, tks for spotting -- changed.
  • South-West Pacific: link Air Commodore?
    • I prefer not to have separate blue links together, even though it's first use for the rank.
  • South-West Pacific: Arthur handed over command of No. 78 Wing to Group Captain Rawlinson: maybe reinforce this is the Rawlinson previously mentioned (or infer it by dropping the Group Captain)?
    • I think it's worth mentioning his rank at this stage so I can add "Alan" to clarify.
  • Later life and legacy: Arthur was discharged from the Permanent Air Force: this is the first mention of the "Permanent Air Force", perhaps just refer to the RAAF instead?
    • Yeah, the source explicitly says Permanent Air Force and I liked it as distinguishing from the Reserve but I grant you it kinda pops out of nowhere here. If I could find a source explicitly saying he was commissioned into the PAF in 1938, I'd add that at the appropriate spot but there seems to be no Commonwealth Gazette entry for that, so will drop "Permanent".

That's it for me. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 04:40, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all that Zawed. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:12, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Happy in support. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 06:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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