Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Turf Moor/archive2

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 27 March 2021 [1].

Turf Moor edit

Nominator(s): WA8MTWAYC (talk) 15:29, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about one of the oldest football grounds in the world, which received some fame for being the “Happy Place” of an I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here contestant. After an unfortunately failed FAC nom almost 11 years ago, I decided to hopefully bring it up to FA status. I’ve squeezed out every bit of information, including from the seminal book Football Grounds of Britain by Simon Inglis. The peer review received some good, constructive comments. I hope it’s interesting and comprehensive, and I look forward to any comments. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 15:29, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild edit

Recusing to review.

  • "In 1883, they invited Burnley to a pitch adjacent to the cricket field." Suggest 'In 1883, they invited Burnley F.C. to use a pitch adjacent to the cricket field.'
    • Done
  • "while terraces were also added to each end of the ground". When?
    • In the same year, added
  • "attended a friendly between Burnley and Bolton Wanderers". Suggest 'attended a friendly match between Burnley and Bolton Wanderers'. And link to Exhibition game.
    • Done
  • "Burnley is situated on the edge of the Pennines". Could we first mention the country and part of the country in which it is located?
    • Done
  • Link Middle Ages.
    • Done
  • "Before 1840, however, there was a short-lived attempt". Delete "however".
    • Done
  • "£4,000 as of 2021" → 'the equivalent of £4,000 as of 2021'.
    • Done
  • "and the Bee Hole Colliery" Delete "the".
    • Done
  • "The following month, they invited association football team Burnley, Rovers' successors who had been formed on 18 May 1882, to move from their original home at Calder Vale along with a donation of £65 (£7,000 as of 2021) toward the setup costs." Possibly a bit long - split? The "along with" wording doesn't read well.
    • Split and reworded
  • "installed uncovered terraces". Could we have an in line explanation of what a "terrace" is?
    • Done
  • "attended the friendly between". Insert 'match'; and link.
    • Done
  • "(£9,000 as of 2021)" See above. And in other similar cases.
    • Done
  • "subsequently increased their ticket prices to 6d" Is it known what they were before? Use pence instead of "d" and link it.
    • Unfortunately not; done
  • "although it retained its name by the supporters". This doesn't make sense.
    • Reworded
  • "stretching from the goal". Which one?
    • The eastern one, added
  • "and after the First World War ended". How is this relevant?
    • Removed
  • "a record for Turf Moor". Perhaps 'still the record for Turf Moor'?
    • Done
  • "but these ideas were delayed by the outbreak of the Second World War." The ideas weren't delayed. Their implementation was.
    • Reworded
  • "was built with the help from the Burnley youth players" Either delete the first "the", or "from" → 'to'.
    • Done
  • "(£2.98 million as of 2021)[a]". From MOS:PF "Where a footnote applies only to material within parentheses, the ref tags belong just before the closing parenthesis."
    • Done
  • "Both never came into operation". "Both never" → 'neither'.
    • Done
  • "The field was also raised". I think that for consistency it would be better to use 'pitch'.
    • Done
  • "Burnley defeated the Scots 3–1 on aggregate". What was the score at Burnley? Mention that there was a return leg - Two-legged tie. Link aggregate score.
    • Added, done, done
  • "A drop in home attendances combined with an enlarged debt caused a rapid decline in the team's fortunes between the late 1970s and the early 1990s, whereby Burnley were left with little money to invest on the stadium's redevelopment and safety work." The bits either side of the comma don't link up too well.
    • I think it's alright. Does it need the word "also" to indicate that because of the mentioned reasons Burnley were also left with little money to spent on the redevelopment and safety work (and less on players et cetera)? What do you suggest?
Thinking about it, why not make it two sentences? 'A drop in home attendances combined with an enlarged debt caused a rapid decline in the team's fortunes between the late 1970s and the early 1990s. Burnley were left with little money to invest in the stadium's redevelopment and safety work." The bits either side of the comma don't link up too well.'
Note the change of "on" to 'in'.
Agreed, done
  • "following the Hillsborough disaster" needs an in line explanation. Something like 'when a human crush on a football ground terrace caused 75 fatalities'.
    • Done
  • "which had to be acted upon within 12 months". Started, finished, spent, committed? "acted upon" is not very clear.
    • Spent, reworded
  • "following the 2002 ITV Digital collapse" A brief explanation of why this caused financial difficulties please.
    • Added
  • "split in six phases" → 'to be carried out in six phases' or similar.
    • Done
  • "The planning permission". Delete "The".
    • Done
  • "as part of a extension" "a" → 'an'.
    • Oh, sloppy. Done
  • "Turf Moor's Desso GrassMaster pitch"
    • Sorry, but I can't see it here
  • "both have two tiers" → 'each have two tiers'.
    • Done
  • "Would it be appropriate to link "corporate hospitality boxes" to Luxury box?
    • Yes, done
  • "other campus locations were opened". "were" → 'have been'.
    • Done
  • Most of the uses under "Other uses" seem to be hosting football games. Possibly a different section title?
    • Added "events" to the title
  • "the latter scored a penalty kick." → the latter scored from a penalty kick.'
    • Done
  • "The ground had hosted several women's charity matches". Delete "had".
    • Done
  • "The highest attendance in a league match". "in" → 'at'.
    • Done

Great stuff. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:32, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Looking good. No rush, this is not a race. Just "A drop in home attendances ...", ITV and 6d to go; plus I forgot to explain:

"Turf Moor's Desso GrassMaster pitch". That seems excessively jargony. Any reason why it can't be 'Turf Moor's artificial grass (Desso GrassMaster) pitch'?

Reworded

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:00, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gog, thank you very much for taking a look and for the review. I've addressed all comments and left a question under the "A drop in..." one. Thanks, WA8MTWAYC (talk) 23:33, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "subsequently increased their ticket prices to six pence" Perhaps add an 'equivalent to ...'?
    • Done

Support from Kosack edit

I took a look at this at peer review shortly before it came here and made some suggestions which were all acted upon. Since then, the article has received further attention from the FAC and the talk page and I'm happy to support at this point. Great work. Kosack (talk) 13:42, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

I'll copyedit as I go; please revert anything you disagree with.

Thanks for that, it looks good!
  • Why do we need to mention the river Brun? And that's a run-on sentence, if we keep the mention.
    • We've done so because it's part of the (indirect) explanation why the stadium is called "Turf Moor" (by mentioning the moors). Amended (hopefully done correctly).
  • Having read the article about Burnley I see why you describe them as the successors to Burnley Rovers, but since it's a different sport, and initially a different ground, the reader won't follow.
    • I see, removed "Rovers' successors who had been formed on 18 May 1882" as it's not vital. Hope it's clearer now.
  • Perhaps not necessary for the article, but where was Calder Vale? The village is near Preston, so I assume we're not referring to that?
    • Very little is known about Calder Vale. There is a "Calder Vale Rd" and "Calder Park South" (with quite a large grass field) in Burnley, but that's about it.
  • Until the dispute about the shared dressing room was mentioned I didn't understand that cricket was still being played -- presumably not on the same land that was used for football, but on an adjacent pitch? Can we say this when the invitation to Burnley to move is mentioned in the first paragraph? This would also give us an opportunity to name the ends, by explaining "Cricket Field End".
    • Indeed on an adjacent pitch. Expanded the sentence about the invitation.
  • "In 1891, Burnley Union Star disbanded": suggest something like "In 1891, another local football team, Burnley Union Star, disbanded and ...."
    • Done
  • "The Stars Stand was demolished in 1898 and replaced by a larger grandstand, which was referred to as the Stars Stand by the supporters." Perhaps "still referred to" or "continued to be referred to".
    • Done
  • "a roof was constructed to cover the terracing at the Cricket Field End, which increased the ground's capacity to around 50,000": how can constructing a roof increase capacity? Presumably the terracing was extended as well?
    • It was more due to the expansion of the embankment that the capacity increased. I reworded the sentence.
  • I'm aware that the population may have shrunk quite a bit between 1914 and 1960, but my eye was caught by the contrast between "around 50,000, almost equal to the town's male population" (this article, 1914) and "With 80,000 inhabitants, the town of Burnley became the smallest to have an English first tier champion", referring to 1960, from the article on Burnley F.C.. Can you confirm both these numbers are accurate? And I see later in the article that 21,944 is about one third of the 2020 population, implying about 66,000 is the current population; later we say that the population is now around 73,000.
    • I can confirm both numbers are accurate:) Although the 100k and 80k figures (approx.) are from two different books (by Simon Inglis and Tim Quelch), they're also recorded here: [2] The town's current population is indeed about 73k, according to the last (reliable) measure in 2001 [3] (Note: Excel document file). More recent Census reports imply a figure of 87k, but this is for the Borough of Burnley and not exclusively for the town. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 21:44, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The following year, the new chairman Bob Lord purchased 80 acres of farmland at Gawthorpe Hall; Burnley became one of the first clubs to set up a purpose-built training centre." Assuming that the training centre was actually built on this farmland, suggest "In 1955, Burnley became one of the first clubs to set up a purpose-built training centre, on 80 acres of farmland at Gawthorpe Hall purchased by their new chairman, Bob Lord."
    • Done
  • "the players' tunnel behind the goal": wouldn't this be more natural as "the players' tunnel behind one of the goals"?
    • Done
  • Is it "Longside Stand" or "Longside terrace"?
    • It's quite interchangeably, but I amended "Stand" into "terrace"
  • I had to read through carefully to understand the sequence of stands at the two sides -- I kept getting confused as to which stand was on which side. Since the infobox says "Harry Potts Way", I think if you just make it clear that the Brunshaw Road Stand is on the south side, and that the name has changed, that would help. Perhaps "so in 1885 the club built an 800-seater wooden grandstand along the south side of the ground, along Brunshaw Road (as it was then known)".
    • Done
  • The panorama caption says "Cricket Field Stand", but that stand is labelled "David Fishwick Stand" -- perhaps a short term sponsorship deal? If you can source it, it would be good to say something about this so the reader doesn't think there's an error. You might also make it "looking north from the Bob Lord Stand" to help a reader understand the orientation.
    • It was indeed a sponsorship deal. He had sponsored the stand since 2004, but I can't find when it was renamed. Amended the image caption.
  • "The club's chairman Barry Kilby owned 51 per cent of the company's shares": shares of what? Longside Properties?
    • Yes, clarified

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:22, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Christie Thank you very much for taking a look and for the review and copy edit. I've addressed all comments. If there's something else, please let me know. Cheers, WA8MTWAYC (talk) 21:44, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Looks good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:42, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Spotchecks not done

  • The record attendance figure differs between the lead and text - which is correct?
    • Very good find. It's 54,775, so it was a small typo in the lead.
  • Don't use pseudoheading markup - see MOS:PSEUDOHEAD
    • Done
  • "This unbroken service makes the stadium the second-longest continuously used ground in English professional football" - don't feel citing this extraordinary claim to Burnley FC itself is a good idea. In general I'm seeing quite a number of citations to Burnley FC - could you explain your approach? Are there no independent sources supporting these details?
    • Replaced the source. I've indeed used quite a number of citations to Burnley, because they aren't the biggest nor the most mentioned English club, so in order to give a comprehensive view I had to use those sources sometimes. I think we did a good job in using secondary sources for the very large part of the article.
      • I see some other claims that I don't feel are appropriately sourced to Burnley - eg that they are one of the world's biggest sellers of Bénédictine. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:35, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Added an extra ref.
  • What makes Adams a high-quality reliable source? Wiseman? Fiszman? FCHD? RSSSF? When Saturday Comes?
    • Duncan Adams has written multiple books about English football grounds, including one for this season. He's a member of the the 92 Club, so he has also visited all grounds which he has written about.
    • David Wiseman is a Burnley fan and has written multiple books about the club. Among his works are "Up the Clarets: Story of Burnley Football Club" (1973), which was regarded as the seminal book about Burnley F.C. before Simpson had his one published in 2007.
    • Marc Fiszman has written multiple yearbooks about (league) competitions and football and rugby clubs, from Reading F.C. to Wasps RFC.
    • FCHD is regarded as a very reliable source for historical data in English football and has been referenced in many featured articles (e.g. Luton Town F.C. and Cardiff City F.C.).
    • RSSSF is the online database of historical football statistics that's used as a general guide by several mainstream sports media outlets, including ESPN. Its charter may provide some extra clarification. The site is also widely used for football articles on Wikipedia and actually for most of the featured articles (e.g. Arsenal F.C. and Manchester United F.C.).
    • When Saturday Comes is published every month and "is the only independent national football magazine"; its blog is part of The Guardian Sport Network. Although it has some humorous articles, it's mostly seriously. The author of the cited article, Mike Whalley, is also a writer for the Manchester Evening News.
      • Generally speaking, neither writing many things nor being used in other articles is a good rationale for something being a high-quality reliable source. This may be helpful in elaborating on the rationales above. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:35, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Some further explanations:
        • FCHD has used multiple reliable sources: [4]. It is part of the WikiProject Football reliable sources. E.g. it's been used by this newspaper: [5]. Its reliability has been doubted before by non-football editors, but I think ChrisTheDude explained it better than I did: Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Gillingham F.C. records.
        • David Wiseman has been mentioned in this newspaper: [6]. He has written multiple books about Burnley and is a noted expert in the field. Most Burnley books have used his seminal work, "Up the Clarets: Story of Burnley Football Club" (1973), as a benchmark/source.
          • Can you give some specific examples of him being noted as an expert? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
            • In the introduction of Simpson's 2007 book, it's stated that he used the works of Wiseman as one of the sources. Wiseman has also been mentioned here, here, and here. I would say he's an expert in the Burnley field. However, I replaced the source.
        • Replaced the Adams and Fiszman sources.
  • Burnley Borough Council is a publisher and shouldn't be italicized; check for others. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:20, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done, done
      • Looks like there are still a number of errors of this kind - for example Premier League. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:35, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Should be fixed now, I've also amended the UEFA one.
Nikkimaria, thanks very much for the source review. I've addressed your points and left some comments. Thanks, WA8MTWAYC (talk) 09:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria Replied to your comments above.

Coord note edit

Hi WA8MTWAYC, re. "In the spring of 1911..." -- pls try to use wording that avoids seasonal time references; I won't hold up promotion over it though. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:36, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Turf_Moor/archive2&oldid=1014591813"