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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Touch Me I'm Sick

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 00:51, 10 May 2008.

Touch Me I'm Sick edit

After months of FAC reviews this is my first actual FAC nomination. I've been working on this article for a (unnecessarily) long time and think it fulfills all the criteria. "Touch Me I'm Sick" had a rather sparse peer review and was Alternative rock Wikiproject Collaboration of the week a long while back. Brief intro: "Touch Me I'm Sick" is pretty much the first-ever grunge song and vastly influenced the early 1990s alternative music scene.

Concerns should be taken care of quickly; Thanks, indopug (talk) 05:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: External links that are reviews should be included in the infobox, not the external links section. The Mudhoney topic template seems rather red; is there any use in a navigational template with most of its links being articles that aren't yet created? -- Naerii 06:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For song articles, reviews aren't listed in the infobox, because very few publications actually review singles. Besides, the All Music Guide review is more a description of the song and the impact its had. As for the navigational template--apart from the issue being rather tangential here--well, red links are not evil. Somebody, maybe even me, will create articles for those songs. indopug (talk) 06:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support as a member of WikiProject Alternative music (who helped out with sourcing during the project collaboration). I remember when this became a Good Article I thought to myself, "It's ok enough to attain GA status, but it could use some work". Rereading it again I am impressed by its current state. No outstanding issue remaining as far as I see. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

All other sources look good. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The page I've linked to is only a list of concerts Mudhoney have played in 2007, and a lists of songs played at each of those shows; hardly controversial info. I'm using it to cite that the band still play "Touch Me I'm Sick" at almost every concert. As for the fan site itself, its been around (and updated) for more than ten years; even the BBC website included a link to it--click on Loads of Mudhoney articles and reviews. indopug (talk) 12:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Leaving this one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ptn/mudhoney/about.html SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I admitted it is only a fansite. Is it alright if I remove the reference but leave the information there? The site is only being used to prove that the band still play this song regularly at their concerts, hardly a controversial fact. indopug (talk) 05:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's important to know that they play the song regularly. Elton John plays "Rocket Man" regularly, but it's not really worth mentioning. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. (grudgingly, due to the nature of example used) indopug (talk) 06:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved issues from Maralia (talk) 21:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I've given it a quick copyedit, mainly fixing punctuation around quotations and adding nonbreaking spaces. Remaining issues:

  • Some habits are showing through in your writing. Please review instances of the following to make sure they're necessary/appropriate:
  • scare quotes - "dirty", "blunt", "classic"
  • emdashes
  • words like 'claims' and 'contends' are kind of loaded and not recommended per Wikipedia:Words to avoid
removed the "scare quotes" (sorry couldn't resist :)), and fixed the rest too.
  • The first paragraph of the Release and reception section could use reworking - there's nothing terribly wrong with it, but the prose could be improved by reordering some of the sentences and reducing use of passive voice.
Kinda changed it a little bit.
  • "they are acknowledged as "the true founding fathers of Grunge"" - this is a case where it would be helpful to say in the main text where the quote comes from.
Thing is the BBC webpage I got took it from says "It's often said that Mudhoney were the true founding fathers of Grunge". Wwouldn't attributing it to the beeb--"The BBC acknowledges Mudhoney as 'the true founding fathers of Grunge'"--imply that only BBC believe so, rather than the general critical consensus as is the case? The Allmusic ref (#20) included also says pretty much the same thing, albeit in different words.
The beginning of the problem here is the verb 'acknowledge'. As you say, it implies belief rather than just reporting. It's probably better to take a step back and use a full quote. FWIW, I actually prefer the Allmusic statement - "Mudhoney were truly the band that made the '90s grunge rock movement possible." - as it's a stronger statement (not just a 'people say' comment) and it's attributable to a specific person.
Done, but with a different quote. "Although Mudhoney never accomplished this level of mainstream acceptance, according to All Music Guide's Mark Deming, the band's "indie-scene success laid the groundwork for the movement that would (briefly) make Seattle, WA, the new capital of the rock & roll universe"."
  • On the Courtney Love pquote: Unless you feel there is a strong need for it, it would be better not to interwiki link within a quote. Also, there is no need for a period at the end of the description.
It isn't linked to wiktionary, but piped to striptease. (if this is what you mean)
What I mean is that it's distracting to have a word linked in a quotation, MOS advises against it, and in my opinion 'stripper' isn't a word that needs linking badly enough to warrant it here.
Done
  • The last paragraph of the Legacy section needs some citations.
Done, although I thought it was kinda redundant, because the book especially was self-referential.

Thanks for a good read. I appreciate your work reviewing FACs, and good luck on your first one. Maralia (talk) 15:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review and the copy-edit, someday I'll get around to figuring out logical punctuation. indopug (talk) 18:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've struck resolved issues, and elaborated on a couple remaining ones. Maralia (talk) 01:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support All my concerns have been addressed. Well done! Maralia (talk) 21:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! You helped the article become a whole lot better. indopug (talk) 22:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments.

  • "was released as the band's, and independent record label Sub Pop's, debut single on 1 August 1988" - this sounds awkward, even though I know what you're saying. Suggest you mention the label after the release date...
Done. "Recorded in March 1988 at Seattle's Reciprocal Recording studios by producer Jack Endino, "Touch Me I'm Sick" was released as a single on 1 August 1988. It was Mudhoney's debut release, and the first-ever single to be issued by independent record label Sub Pop."
  • "that all got flipped around" - any reason why?
You know the band (especially the singer) has always given the impression as if they prefer the B-side "Sweet Young Thing"; but nothing concrete that I can cite or quote. If you see later in the article, Mark Arm refers to "Touch Me" as a "b-side toss-off".
  • Ref 4; copyvio issues (does operationphoenixrecords.com have permission to print the interview? If not, use {{cite news}} or similar, and no URL)
"The following Maximumrocknroll, Flipside, Suburban Voice, and HeartattaCk punk zines...are out-of-print, and each zine has given me permission to post this information online."
  • Ref 13 needs to be duplicated for every quote from that essay
Done. I found only one other instance.
Done. Thanks for the useful find.

dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot man 13:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Support One thing you are got to fix is that Touch Me I'm Sick wasn't the first single released by Sub Pop. The first single was Hunted Down by Soundgarden. --Freedom (song) (talk) 17:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the support and the observation, but it seems to me that although "Hunted Down" might have been released earlier, "Touch Me I'm Sick" is the first commercial 7" single ever released on ... Sub Pop according to Allmusic. So my guess is that "Hunted Down was only released as a promo; making the "Touch Me" the first single. Case in point, Sub Pop's "Hunted Down" page lacks a single cover, using the Screaming Life/Fopp cover from much later; another indication that it was probably a promo release. See also: Sup Pop's first single: Mudhoney's "Touch Me I'm Sick" at the BBC. indopug (talk) 18:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I checked the Azerrad book and the pages cited don't say it was the first single. A few pages before, it says the Soundgarden single came out in July 1987. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I got a press kit from Sub Pop at work about their 20th anniversary. I believe the label listed the Soundgarden single as its first, but I'll check on that. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for confirming--I removed the mention from the lead as well. I also found this site that catalogues three Sub Pop singles that came before "Touch Me". Now if we can't take as fact something both the Allmusic and the BBC say ... well, that's worrying. indopug (talk) 05:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's always a case-by-case basis even with reliable sources. Given Azerrad interviewed all the members of Mudhoney plus Pavitt and Poneman, he would be the most reliable source on this subject from what is available. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good you have fixed it. Good job on the article. --Freedom (song) (talk) 10:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nice work. Just a few small things:
  • It was recorded in March 1988 at Seattle's Reciprocal Recording studios by producer Jack Endino - Was Endino also the engineer. In my understanding, engineers 'record'.
Oh, I'm not sure whether was the engineer; I'll change the "by" to a "with"
  • What is a blunt bass line.
Per the source (AMG). And, er, I don't know how to change it.
Just put in quotes. Ceoil (talk) 23:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I had it as "blunt" bass line, but a reviewer above was concerned it would be a scare quote. indopug (talk) 23:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can't please everyone. Ceoil (talk) 23:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, but you can - I'm the one who complained about scare quotes earlier, but I'd be perfectly satisfied with direct quotation of the word or the phrase, with a cite. Maralia (talk) 00:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But that'll unnecessarily complicate a sentence that is just a simple description of the song (provided by a reliable source that is cited). I believe blunt is an apt (and uncontroversial) description and am inclined to leave it as it is. If its still a problem, will adjectives like "driving" do? indopug (talk) 06:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Go with "blunt bassline". Don't worry, maaaaaaaan. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll read the rest later. Ceoil (talk) 22:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the copy-edit, but ""Touch Me I'm Sick" was a hit on the indie charts"--there are no independent charts in Seattle, so I'll replace "charts" with "circuit". indopug (talk) 23:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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