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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Todd Manning/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 00:00, 31 December 2015 [1].

Todd Manning edit

Nominator(s): User:Flyer22 Reborn, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the groundbreaking character from One Life to Live and General Hospital, played by the incomparable Roger Howarth and Trevor St. John. Flyer22 Reborn and I have worked on this article, on and off, for about two years, as you can see by our long and often contentious (but collaborative and always positive) discussions on the talk page. Todd's article, like the character himself, is controversial and causes lots of arguments, but Flyer22 Reborn and I feel like it's finally ready to go a round or two here at FAC. We welcome your feedback and anticipate much discussion here. We're proud of what we've been able to accomplish, despite the article's complexity and history and look forward to this process. Its first FAC unfortunately failed due to lack of response, so we hope that it's able to go through this time. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support: From a first look, article looks great! Let's go through a prose review then source. Images look good, but I'm a bit inexperienced in that area so if another editor could look through those images, that would be great! I will keep going through when I have more time. Just read through and there are no other prose issues with me. Besides the dead sources and dmy/mdy issues, I believe this article should be an FA. MrWooHoo (talk) 20:26, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Is Reference 1 really needed in the lead? Per WP:WHENNOTCITE, references don't really need to be in the lead unless the info isn't in the article body.
We chose to include ref 1 because it supports Todd's full name, Thomas Todd Manning, and because the character goes by his middle name. So yes, we feel that it's necessary. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:04, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support After reading through this article, I'm happy to conclude that this meets the FA criteria. I found no major prose issues or inconsistencies with the images. However, I did spot a few minor issues with some of the references:

  • Refs 55 and 56 are dead. No doubt these could be easily archived
  • Ref 25 has an inline tag error
  • Does this article use dmy or mdy date formats? So far I see dmy dates used in the references and mdy dates used in throughout the prose and the infobox.

Other than that, the article looks great. I was expecting to leave a longer review but I couldn't find anything worth mentioning! JAGUAR  14:50, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed dates in infobox and in article. Thanks for your support. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:27, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding this and this, why use British style? I understand that we currently use British style for the dates in the references, though I'd rather that we not since I'm American and prefer American style (I don't like having to remember to use British style), but why use that style in the regular text as well? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:32, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jaguar, mind offering your opinion since you brought up the date style? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:34, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Here's my opinion, even though I'm not Jag: It doesn't matter to me. WP, as a matter of course, uses the British style (ddmmyyyy). I suspect Jag was just asking for everything to be consistent throughout the article, which is fine with me. I tend to follow the suggestions of my FAC reviewers, unless it's crucially important to me (which this isn't), so I went ahead and made the changes. This article discusses a character on an American show, so using the American style of dates makes sense in the body of the article. I'm fine with the consensus. I must admit that this kind of nitpicky-ness used to bug the heck out of me, but now I see it more positively--that Jag was reaching for feedback, which bodes well for this FAC. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:33, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:ENGVAR it's preferred (especially in GAs and FAs) that an article stays consistent with one date format. I thought that since this article is focused on an American show, I would have thought that American dates would be used throughout (per MOS:TIES). I personally think it's super minor, but I know for a fact that a lot of FA reviewers will always point out a mix up of dmy, mdy and ymd style dates being used throughout the article. JAGUAR  00:11, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Two things about this. (1) VisualEditor uses the British format, so for me, I think WP convention should be followed. (2) I agree about consistency, so I'm for using WP convention/British format in the article's body. If you or any other FA reviewer disagrees, though, I'm happy to make the changes. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:15, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jaguar, I've been aware of WP:ENGVAR, but I don't see where it states that we have to use the same date style for the article as a whole that we use for the references. Figureskatingfan and I discussed the date style on the talk page, and I was clear then that I prefer American style. Figureskatingfan didn't seem hard-pressed on either version. All in all, this is a minor issue, as stated. I simply wanted to know where you are coming from on the matter.
Figureskatingfan, American style for American topics is also conventional, which I assume is why Jaguar was surprised that the article uses British style for the references. I would prefer that we at some point change the date style of this article back to American style. But, again, this is a minor issue and does not significantly affect the quality of this article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:19, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then again, Jaguar, I do see where the WP:ARTCON subsection of WP:ENGVAR can be taken to mean that everything except the noted exceptions should be consistent. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if there's "set in stone" policy regarding the consistency of one date format, but it's always been from my experience that one date format is recommended in GAs and FAs. It's super minor though, and I was a little surprised to see this use British dates as it's an article focused on a US topic. There is a script you can install that changes all the dates (prose and references alike) into any format with one click. I use it a lot, but honestly I'm neutral on this matter and I think I'll leave it up to you two to decide which date format you prefer! JAGUAR  19:17, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ran the script for date consistency (ddmmyyyy, as per consensus). It should go through the next time it runs. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Given what Jaguar and I stated above, I don't understand why you view ddmmyyyy as consensus. You prefer British style, and I don't. But I suppose I will worry about that at a later date (no pun intended). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

  • I'm kinda croggled at the size of the article, so I'll probably have to take it in sections.
  • Are these sorts of articles like movie synopses which aren't cited?
  • Should Carol Swift be linked on first use? Otherwise lacking context for her.
  • Link tabloid paper, Mafia.
  • After many difficulties in their marriage, Starr is diagnosed with aplastic anemia Not sure I see a connection between Starr's disease and marital problems between her father and Blair.
  • When Blair falls into a coma, Todd pays lawyer Téa Delgado (Florencia Lozano) five million dollars to marry him so he can keep custody of Starr. When she awakens, he allows her visitation. It's unclear who "she" refers to in the second sentence.
  • As they are about to remarry, Sam reveals Todd staged the hit on their nanny to win Blair's affections. Did I miss something about a hit on the nanny?
  • Move the link for archetype to first use.
  • Done through archetypes and rape. More later.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
With this edit, I made changes per your comments. With regard to the plot summary, the show itself is the source; it is a primary source matter. For what I mean, see what MOS:PLOT states about inline citations. I can assure you that what is in that plot section is factual. Carol Swift is not a WP:Notable character, and does not have her own Wikipedia article; I added "a woman named" in front of "Carol Swift" to make it seem more understandable that her name is not wikilinked. I'm not sure what you mean by "Link tabloid paper, Mafia."; I maybe overlooked something there? I tweaked the wording for the aplastic anemia's connection to the marital problems. I thought that the "she awakens" part was clear, since it's Blair who was in a coma, but I tweaked the wording. I added more context for the fake hit on the nanny. I would have moved the "archetypes" link, but the first appearance is in a quote, and, per the Linking aspect of MOS:QUOTE, we should generally avoid wikilinking within quotes; in my opinion, though, wikilinking in this case is an exception to that rule. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
More tweaks here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Your changes are fine thus far; I meant that tabloid newspaper and Mafia (capitalized, please) need to be linked.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:23, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I guess the word mafia is supposed to be capitalized in this case? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:55, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The rest of it looks good; almost tempted to cruise Youtube for some of these scenes. Supporting.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:27, 7 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Sturmvogel 66; I'm glad that the article has made you interested in watching some Todd Manning scenes on YouTube. When I read the article or come across some Todd Manning material in the media, I sometimes find myself watching some of the scenes on YouTube. I wish that a lot of the older scenes were in better condition at that site, though; for example, this scene where Todd gets the scar (no one knows how he got the scar on his face by seemingly getting hit in the back of the head, LOL...unless the bar had something on it to scrape the side of his face) or this scene where he terrorizes Marty are not in good shape. This scene, where Todd has his shorter hair style and goes to get the scar removed (but changes his mind) is in somewhat better condition. Some older scenes are in better condition than others, and the newer scenes are usually in good condition. A place people can watch much of Todd's history is The Real Todd Manning channel.
On a side note: What do you think of the dates matter noted above? And do you think I should add a little material to the article from this The Huffington Post source? For the "Rape and redemption" section, I thought about adding the following to the "Hayward categorized" paragraph since it doesn't seem like it would flow well elsewhere in that section: "Tanya D. Marsh of The Huffington Post, when comparing Todd to other evil or troubled male characters that have been redeemed, stated, 'It is a fairly universal theme that tortured bad boys are sexy.'" Or do you think the article is better off without that text? What she states about Todd is already in the article, so I see no need to include her direct commentary on him. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:05, 7 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
LOL, yes doing research for this article was such a burden! Re: The Huffington Post; it's my understanding that we're to avoid using it because it's self-published and unreliable. I agree, though, that it's not needed, anyway, since the article already states the information about Todd's sexiness coming from his bad-boy-ness (yes, I know, not-a-word). Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:54, 7 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Figureskatingfan, The Huffington Post can count as a WP:Reliable source; otherwise I wouldn't have considered it. Of course, per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, it's not a reliable source for everything (or for most things). It's been debated enough as a reliable source at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard and WP:BLP noticeboard, as seen in this and this archive search. As for "What she states about Todd is already in the article", I mean what she indicated about him being redeemed, and what she stated about him being a male lead and so on. But I'm not hard-pressed on adding the "bad boys are sexy" piece. I thought about adding it to the aforementioned paragraph, or somewhere else in the section, because the section addresses speculation on why Todd is popular. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jester66, regarding this edit you made, we are currently going by British date style; see what is stated above. So it would be best if you self-revert your edit on the date style. That stated, per above, feel free to weigh in here on what date style you prefer for the article. As noted above, I prefer American style. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:38, 7 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Strictly speaking I'd think that the date format should be American style, but I honestly don't care one way or another as I'm used to the US military format which is also the European one. I will say that it should use one format consistently, even in the access dates in the cites. I really don't see that the HuffPo bit had anything to offer that was new so I see no reason to add it to what's already a long article.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:17, 7 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, Sturmvogel 66. I went ahead and reverted Jester66 for consistency, but I'm sure that this article will eventually use American date style. I also added a little more to the article (followup edits here and here). That section used to mention Starr's cartoon daydreams, but it was a note back then (tied to Howarth's eyes being hazel rather than blue), and not directly backed up by any sources in the article. Now it's different. I thank you, MrWooHoo and Jaguar for weighing in and helping improve this article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:25, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is there anything else that needs to be done with this article, or are we stalled due to the holidays? It seems to me that we've successfully addressed all concerns. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:11, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We're clearly done and just waiting for this process to close. Thanks for changing the dates to American style. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:57, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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