Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Trundle/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 28 October 2021 [1].


Nominator(s): Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:43, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an archaeological site in Sussex that contains an Iron Age hillfort and a Neolithic causewayed enclosure. Causewayed enclosures were new to archaeology in the 1920s and it was one of the first to be found and excavated, and also one of the first archaeological sites to be identified by aerial photographs, now a standard procedure. This is the third causewayed enclosure site I've brought to FAC; the others, for comparison, are Knap Hill and Whitehawk Camp. Thanks are due to Dudley Miles, who provided a thorough talk page review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:43, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Nikkimaria (talk) 15:19, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; replies above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:47, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning support from Richard Nevell

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I'm very exited to see this article at FAC; Mike's edits have been cropping up on my watchlist and it's been great to see the article improve so much. I hope to find time read the article properly, but on the subject of the sourcing the article looks to be using the best available sources. I do have one (trivial) question at this stage. Is there a particular reason Eliot Cecil Curwen's name is written as E. C. Curwen in the body of the article whereas other archaeologists and historians are given their full names rather than initials (eg: Hadrian Allcroft, Owen Bedwin, Stuart Piggott)? Richard Nevell (talk) 20:29, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've finally found the time the article deserves. The article made a good first impression, and it certainly stands up to scrutiny. It addresses the topic very well, giving a good level of detail about the site and providing context. The Trundle has a complex history and it is very well handled. I like the way the evolving interpretations of the site and later revisions are handled throughout. This approach works very well. The use of illustrations is excellent, with the aerial photographs and marked up images. The DTM image was added midway through based on openly licensed data. I don't know if that was the result of Mike' efforts or just very good timing from the uploader, but it definitely enhances the article.

Below I have made some suggestions for adjusting the content. The comments are arranged by section, and most are a slight change in emphasis. There are a couple of sources (Reynolds 2009 and Hamilton & Manley 2001) which might be worth checking for relevant information. I can't access the useful bits of the Reynolds book, and I've only skimmed Hamilton & Manley but it does mention the Trundle a few times.

Lead

Background

  • "The causeways are difficult to explain in military terms" I don’t think it will be obvious to the reader why they would be interpreted as military sites. Perhaps a slight change of emphasis to something along the lines of “Early interpretations suggested a military role, though the sites were difficult to explain”? I’m sure there’s a better way of phrasing it, but I assume what’s meant is that archaeologists of the time assumed they were military sites, but were puzzled as to how they worked.
    See next response. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:08, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The rewording certainly helps, but my thinking is more along the lines of historiography. Why is the starting point assessing the site in military terms? That might be a difficult one to find discussions for. From my admittedly limited knowledge of the history of archaeology, a quite a few people involved in early excavations had a military background which influenced their thinking. If there isn't something which addresses the historiography of causewayed enclosures, then it's not a point that can be made in the article, but I thought I'd suggest it in case something is possible. Richard Nevell (talk) 10:31, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I see -- yes, would be interesting but I don't recall seeing anything like that in the early sources. The question is first raised by Maud Cunnington in regard to Knap Hill; she presumably had no military background but on the other hand would have read works by people like Augustus Pitt Rivers. I'll keep an eye out but I have nothing to hand. That would also be an interesting area to cover in the overall causewayed enclosure article, which I'd like to get to one day. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:35, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The causeways are difficult to explain in military terms" "They were constructed in a short time": does this mean individual causewayed enclosures were built quickly, or that the phenomenon itself happened within a relatively short time frame? The latterformer seems to be what is meant, but a slight change of wording could make it clearer.
    I've tried a rewording that I hope addresses both these points. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:08, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I just realised I copied the wrong bit! I've added the bit of text I meant to refer to above. I tied myself in a know with this one. Richard Nevell (talk) 10:31, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Reworded. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:22, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hillforts began to appear in Britain early in the Iron Age." That certainly when they became more common, but the earliest examples date from the Late Bronze Age. See Hamilton, Sue; Manley, John (2001). "Hillforts, monumentality and place: a chronological and topographic review of first millennium BC hillforts of south-east England". European Journal of Archaeology. 4 (1): 7–42. doi:10.1179/eja.2001.4.1.7. ISSN 1461-9571.
    I'd like to update the statement in the article but I don't have access to that source. Can I make it "Hillforts began to appear in Britain late in the Bronze Age, in the late second millennium BC" and cite that paper? What page range should I cite if so? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:16, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for sending that paper; I've now updated the wording in the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:37, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Site and interpretation

  • Excellent use of the aerial photo. I think it would be useful to expand the caption to indicate to the reader which bit is the hillfort and which is the causewayed enclosure. It’s clear from the accompanying paragraphs, but since this draws the eye it would be worthwhile making it easy to understand independently.
    Good idea; done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:16, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The ditches enclose an area of about 5.66 ha" This might be a push, but do you have any way to give context? Does this make this one of the bigger hillforts in Sussex (or a given region) or is it about average?
    I recall some discussion of area but I think it was only for the biggest sites. I'll have to defer this and look through my references; I'll get back to you on this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:16, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Oswald's The Creation of Monuments has a section on the area of causewayed enclosures (pp. 72-75.). They divide them into small, medium and large, but it's a fairly tentative division, and unfortunately the Trundle lies right on the boundary between medium (up to 5.5 ha) and large (6 ha and over) so I would hesitate to unequivocally assign it to "medium sized". I can send you copies of the pages if you'd like to see the discussion. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:43, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd be curious to see the discussion if you have time to send the pages over (there's certainly no rush). Richard Nevell (talk) 21:15, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I've emailed them -- let me know if you see something there that we could use. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:02, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Antiquarian and archaeological investigations

  • I think it would be worth adding that the Duke of Richmond owned the land and gave permission to E.C. Curwen to dig. (Curwen 1929, 35). I think it’s also interesting that one labourer was hired to do the work and they also worked with Curwen on his excavations at the Caburn. Whether that’s worth including is another matter, but I’d be tempted.
    I've now mentioned the Duke. I agree it would be nice to mention the labourer but I don't see how to do it; I wonder if there are historiographic articles on the social relations of the early archaeologists, so many of whom were gentlemen amateurs. I did notice a while ago that Curwen frequently used Robert Gurd to draw his plans and sketch the pottery, and was able to stub an article on him. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:48, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I’m a little disappointed that the sources don’t discuss the significance of the deliberate infilling of ditches, but we have to work with the limitations of the source!
    I give Curwen's opinion that it was the Iron Age builders who did that, in order to flatten the ground within the hillfort -- or do you mean further discussion beyond that? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:50, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I was very much thinking with my hat on as someone who studies destruction and the motivations, eg: to reuse the area for agriculture/while building the hillfort; ritual 'closing' of the site, etc. Just a general interest on my part, not something actionable! Richard Nevell (talk) 21:15, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • When discussing Pit 2 and its purpose ("both pits formed an integral part of the scheme of defence of the two entrances") a recent paper in The Archaeological Journal (Pope, Rachel; Mason, Richard; Hamilton, Derek; Rule, Eddie; Swogger, John (2020-07-02). "Hillfort gate-mechanisms: a contextual, architectural reassessment of Eddisbury, Hembury, and Cadbury hillforts". Archaeological Journal. 177 (2): 339–407. doi:10.1080/00665983.2019.1711301. ISSN 0066-5983.) provides an important counterpoint, essentially shifting the interpretation from defence to agriculture.
    I see they argue that Hembury's entranceways were designed for animal funnelling, but as far as I can see the only relevant reference to the Trundle is on p. 381, where they suggest that the "great gate" at the Trundle may have needed an iron pivot. I've added a mention of that (in the section on Curwen's second dig, since that's where he talks about the odd nature of the huge postholes). Re agricultural use, I added something to the background section, since there's no explicit discussion of this in the individual excavation reports and Pope doesn't include the Trundle in the discussion of entrances designed to funnel animals. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:29, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which researchers/institutions were involved in the Gathering Time project?
    Not sure what you're asking for here -- the three authors are listed in the citation. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:52, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    With earlier work, the names of those involved was prominent in the text (Curwen, Bedwin & Aldsworth, Oswald etc) but with Gathering Time the absence was a notable contrast. My thinking is that it would be good to add them in so that the people involved are given similar prominence, or if there are too many key figures (three is probably the upper limit) give the institutions involved. Richard Nevell (talk) 21:15, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough; I've now credited them in the body of the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:07, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the body is likely to have been that of a criminal executed nearby, between 1000 AD and 1825 AD" I recommend making it clear that this is Aldsworth’s suggestion. I can’t see what it says in the snippet, but the burial seems to be mentioned in Reynold’s book (Reynolds, Andrew (2009). Anglo-Saxon Deviant Burials. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-954455-4.), so there may be other views about the age.
    I've clarified that this is Aldsworth's suggestion. I don't have Reynolds; do you think I need to look at that? Searching for "Trundle" in GBooks only finds that one mention, in the form of a citation, near the end of the book, which makes me doubt there was any discussion. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:29, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The Google snippet view does make it tricky. My hunch is that the Trundle is in the bibliography because Reynolds suggests the burial is early medieval, and that perhaps the OCR missed it earlier in the book or is incomplete. I've seem works where chunks are missing from the preview. But, based on the available info I'd say don't go out of your way to track it down as it's likely to be only a fleeting mention if at all. Maybe one to keep an eye on for the future, but certainly not a serious omission (if it even rises to one at all). Richard Nevell (talk) 21:15, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I’d like to see the earthwork survey have its own section, rather than grouped under ‘other’, explaining the context (who/which organisations were involved, why it was carried out) and the main conclusions. The most important aspect seems to be the discovery of "Scattered around the interior, traces of some fifteen possible house platforms" (Oswald 1995, 14). That should be mentioned, regardless of whether there's a separate section as houses and implied domestic activity aren't mentioned elsewhere.
    I've added a mention of the house platforms -- that was a serious omission, I agree. Re splitting the earthwork survey: are you referring to the geophysical surveys? Or something else referenced in Oswald's 1995 review? The "other" section is already pretty short so I used it as a grab bag for everything not significant enough for its own section. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:34, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I was thinking that the 1995 work could be separated, leaving the rest (including the geophysical surveys) in the 'other' section. The new section could have a couple of sentences of extra detail, mentioning: it was part of a bigger project recording Neolithic sites; though its primary aim was to record the causewayed enclosure, the survey also included the hillfort as an integral part of the site; the identification of the house platforms as an important finding.

    On reflection, I think that could probably be distilled into another sentence, and rather than having two very short sections, it makes sense to keep it as one more substantial section. Richard Nevell (talk) 21:15, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Added a bit, and also realized I had not mentioned Oswald's note of three possible Roman building platforms, so I put that in the site section too. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:21, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Preservation and presentation

Once again, good job with this article, it's a very good handling of the topic. While there are more than a handful of points above, I consider them minor and I look forward to supporting the article. A fair few of the points are phrased as suggestions, so please do feel free to take or leave them. Over to you, and I hope the feedback helps. Richard Nevell (talk) 23:44, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the thoughtful review! I've replied to some points above and will pick this up again tomorrow. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:17, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Richard, I think I've now replied to every point. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:43, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Richard -- added a couple more replies above on the remaining points. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:21, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well that's everything taken care of as far as I'm concerned. Richard Nevell (talk) 23:30, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:57, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

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Support from Cas Liber

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Placeholder - need to sleep now but will look tomorrow (in several hours) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:59, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • A descriptor for E. Cecil Curwen? Ditto William Crawley, William Hayley Mason and O. G. S. Crawford.
    Added for Curwen and Crawford. Cawley's a politician and the text says he was speaking in Parliament, so I was hoping we could leave this to the reader to deduce. Mason was the librarian of the nearby Goodwood estate, according to the frontispiece of his book, but I don't think it adds anything to say who he was. Or I could put it in a footnote? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:57, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
valid points Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:02, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise looks good on comprehensiveness and prose. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:46, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:57, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And for the support! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:49, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from PM

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G'day Mike, great article. A few comments:

Lead
Body
Sources (not a source review)
  • a few sources could do with an ISSN or OCLC identifier to assist with verification
    Added the OCLCs to the books without ISBNs. I haven't added ISSNs to journals before; is there an online search that will find them, like worldcat for OCLC numbers? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:17, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Worldcat should provide the ISSNs. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:19, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. There are a couple of sources with no ISSN still; these are archaeological reports issued at irregular intervals and I don't think any identifier exists for them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:09, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No worries as far as I am concerned. The source reviewer may wish to follow up. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:28, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have. Nice work. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:06, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. All but one responded to above; I'll ping you when that one is done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:17, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Peacemaker67: last point now replied to above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Great stuff Mike. Supporting. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:59, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:05, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Pass. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:41, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, as ever. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:00, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks not done. Version reviewed

Nikkimaria (talk) 23:09, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For these last two I'll have to wait till later this week when I'm back with my books. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:48, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nikki: Now replied to everything above, though with at least one question. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:59, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support on Criterion 1a. I have been following this FAC since it's nomination. I am sorry I have nothing to add but praise.Graham Beards (talk) 16:18, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:50, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.