Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Sword of Shannara/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 20:31, 31 August 2008 [1].

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The Sword of Shannara

Nominator(s): the_ed17

I'm nominating this article because I think that it is a FA or is very close (I think)...it has references where needed, it has images (though they are all non-free...there were no free images that I could find that would illustrate the plot), and everything that should be covered is covered (as far as I know). Before anyone says anything, yes, the character descriptions are long...please remove any unimportant parts yourselves...I've read the novel too much and can't decide what to get rid of! Thank you for taking the time to review this article...Cheers! the_ed17 04:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Did you consult DanDs (talk · contribs) about the nomination before you made the nomination? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I would take time to do an image review as there are too many non-free images in use here, but I want to make sure Sandy's concern is dealt with. --MASEM 04:37, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I did not...I have an excuse, but it sounds stupid, so I won't say it...I will do so now. the_ed17 11:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I notified him, but from his contributions, he has only been on twice since July 19... the_ed17 19:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• Still have concerns about http://www.alitheia.org/shannarafiles/index2.php being a reliable source.
  • What the site says is true: Why would Terry Brooks' official site list it under "Terry Brooks Dedications" if it wasn't? Secondarily, I haven't been able to find another source for that anywhere. If this isn't enough, (considering what WP:V says) than I will remove the citations and the information, but I just think that having that information in the article is better than leaving it out...though I am not as 'battle-tested' as you guys, so if I am wrong, just say so. the_ed17 15:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
    • I think this one we'll leave out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Since everything else is done, I'll be unwatching this FAC. If you need me for something, ping me on my talk page. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
• Current ref 22 is lacking a page number
  • done the_ed17
• You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE#Citation templates.
  • done the_ed17
• Sometimes you use p., sometimes you use page, sometimes you use just the bare number for the page number. Pick one and be consistent.
  • done the_ed17

Otherwise sources look okay. Links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:02, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! the_ed17 15:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Images - In general too many.

• Image:Sword of shannara hardcover.jpg - non-free but well-rationaled, no problems
• Image:Shannara.jpg - non-free but the rationale is no longer correct (its not being used as an infobox image). This is in duplication with the main infobox picture, and of the two, I feel this one is the weaker (it is non-descript, does not help, compared to the first which at least gives character images).
  • removed.
• Image:Allanon and Flick.jpg, Image:Leah.jpg, and Image:Kern (Shannara).jpg - These provide no significant support for the article, they only seem to serve as illustration and are not needed to help the reader's comprehension. If you figure a way to keep them, the images are too large (they far exceed >0.1megapixels and thus not "low resolution"), and the rationales for these could be beefed up to explain more what the user is seeing.
  • Removed two: Allanon and Flick are needed because they are two of the three (maybe 4-5) major major characters of the book. If there are still objections, I will remove that one too...wanted an opinion first.
    • I made the image smaller (I don't have photoshop, so I had to use powerpoint)...does that satisfy low resolution? or not? Thanks.
• Image:Shannara quest party.jpg - of the illustrations, this one is likely ok to keep since you help to establish the character appearances. The image is a bit too large for low resolution but likely understandably so, but you may be challenged on this. Rationale is otherwise fine. --MASEM 21:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
  • I have no idea about resolution for this image....I believe(?) that DanDs uploaded it.
    • For Image:Shannara quest party.jpg, you just need to take the image, scale it down (so that it's 480px across), then upload the picture over that one, or place {{non-free reduce}} on the image page and volunteers will do it as it comes up in the queue.
    • I still believe that the Allanon and Flick one is unnecessary as, if you are saying it is two of the major characters in the book, they are both pictured in the character shot, and that image itself is duplicating that. If you feel there is a need to keep the image as it might be a dramatic or critical scene (I've read this book waaaay back so I don't remember anything but vague details) then this needs to be emphasized more to meet WP:NFC#3a and WP:NFC#8 requirements. --MASEM 13:19, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
      • A) Thank you, for i had no idea how to do that...I will put the template there now. B)No, it is not a dramatic scene...welllll, not really, a Skull Bearer just decides to fly by, scaring both of them half to death...but I don't know if it is a critical scene--it is from somewhere in the first five pages, its their first meeting, etc....But I'm biased! So if you object any more to it, I will remove the image. Cheers! the_ed17 13:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. A cursory glance reveals several issues with the article:
  • Do the images of both the first hardcover and first paperback cover really contribute towards the reader's understanding of the topic? This isn't necessarily a fair-use issue (well, it is in part); even if the images were in the public domain, I'd still question their inclusion. Generally, just one image in the infobox is fine for the "identification of the product" and to "properly convey the meaning and branding intended". A second is redundant.
    • Removed.
      • Struck. Steve ^{T • C} 00:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
  • The images in the plot section are decorative. Even more so than a film plot section with purely decorative images, this being a novel, I'm not sure what these images can convey that words can't. I think a reasonable reading of the fair use policy would see these eliminated.
    • See above.
      • Wavering on the Simmons image, but not enough to oppose. Struck. Steve ^{T • C} 00:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
  • The "Characters" section seems like a rehash of snippets of the plot. Is there any real world context that can be provided, for the main characters at least? Something about their development, how they were written, Brooks' intentions, influences?
    • Trust me, I tried to find anything and I drew a blank. There is just nothing on the web for a 1977 book...
      • This is the problem with taking something to FAC that pre-dates the internet. I don't doubt that you've looked well for anything you can find on the web, but there'll likely be a host of unused sources from offline sources. Newspapers and magazines from the period. You might have some luck with the Google News Archive search. These articles from 1977, for example. While most of these publications make one pay for access to their older articles, if you can get to a reasonably-sized library, they'll perhaps be viewable for free. As it stands, I think without some of these sources, the article will ultimately fail the comprehensiveness requirement. Steve ^{T • C} 07:31, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
        • Yeah, I notice that that is a problem. =) Thank you for the google archive link; I am going to run the title of some of those google links on some special site that my college maintains, and see what I find...otherwise, I'll try the NMU library...and lastly, the Marquette Public Library--but I won't be able to get there until Friday at the earliest....so if someone could help me out, that would be greatly appreciated. the_ed17 13:14, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
          • Tried the library; it has nothing--they don't keep newspapers that long...they have Time back to 1932, but no newspapers back that far.
  • Same for the list of minor characters, really, though I'd guess if there isn't much written about the main ones in reliable sources, there'll be even less about these.
    • See above.
  • Sword of Shannara is a long, hard slog. It's also crammed full with every idea (derivative or no) that Brooks deemed even halfway worthy of inclusion. As such, the "Themes" section seems light on content, failing the comprehensiveness requirement by a fair margin.
    • Some themes are covered in the "Literary Significance and Reception" section...so do I want to repeat things (honest question, not sarcastic)? (See Herbert's commentary in that section.)
  • The reception section focuses almost exclusively on the dispute over the novel's similarity to Lord of the Rings. Is there anything of a more general critical nature? Any retrospective analyses?
    • Most of the critics (all of the reviews that I've seen) focused on how similar the book is to LoTR...that was their main point!
      • Assuming there isn't anything more to be had, even without 1977 sources, I'll concede the point on this one. After all, it'd probably be like asking for reviews of Showgirls that didn't mention the nudity. Steve ^{T • C} 00:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
        • Yeah, it probably would. =)
  • Other than one line in the lead and a few indirect comments in the "Impact" section, there's nothing on the novel's sales figures. It was on bestseller lists, but for how long? How many copies were sold? Does it remain popular?
    • Where could I find that information?
      • Found it, see the 'Book Impact' section.
  • Is there anything more on its holding open the doorway for subsequent fantasy tales onto the mass market?
    • I do not believe so...
  • What impact did it have for Brooks personally?
    • See the 'Background' section on that...all I could find.
      • I added another quote from Brooks' website; is that enough?
  • The prose could do with another pass. Random examples: "It is the first of three books in the Original Shannara Trilogy, being followed by The Elfstones of Shannara and The Wishsong of Shannara, respectively"; odd multiple use of "composing" when more suitable words could be used; "The novel took seven years to complete in conjunction with Brooks' law practice".
    • I believe that all of the prose has been fixed.
• Like I said, this was what leapt out at me on just a brief pass. It's at GA standard, I'd say, but there isn't enough depth to the coverage to allow it a FA pass. It needs some serious expansion and a further copyedit before it's ready for FA. Hope this helps, Steve ^{T • C} 22:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

A question: is there anything other than {{cref}} and {{cnote}} that I can use? They look weird (at least for me) next to the references because of their bigger font size. I remember seeing a <ref group=notes> one time, but I don't know how to use that...thanks for any help. the_ed17 22:26, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Don't know about that specific one, but have you tried {{ref label}} and {{note label}}? Example usage: Sunshine (2007 film)#Notes. Steve ^{T • C} 22:37, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I haven't...but I found what I was referring too--an example: <ref group=Note>[[Special:BookSources/034524804X|ISBN 0-345-24804-X]]</ref> .... and then in the 'Notes' section put this: {{reflist|group=Note}}. the_ed17 00:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

• Note, ed17, please see the WP:FAC instructions and please do not strike comments made by other editors. I will have to step back through all of the diffs now to determine what strikes to remove. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
  • I guess that I'm stuck on PR rules...=) Sorry! the_ed17 13:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. The plot summary is overly long, the characters section lacks context (and the characters should probably not exist as seperate articles on a side note,) and there are numerous MoS errors. I suggest withdrawing and taking the article to peer review (also, reading WP:WAF.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 01:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Can you give me specific examples of MoS errors so that I may fix them? And the article has already been to peer review... the_ed17 13:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
    • Most of the links are not to separate articles--they are to articles like Minor Elves in Shannara and Minor Humans in Shannara. the_ed17 14:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

• Will one of you reviewers shorten the plot summary for me? I'm biased and can't decide what to get rid of....I feel like I'm in a Catch-22: I've already removed some stuff, but if I remove more, no one will understand the plot summary if they haven't read it (thus torpedoing any chance here)--but if I don't remove stuff, it won't be a FA either!!! What the heck am I supposed to do with that section? Thanks for any help, and I'm sorry if I sound overly frustrated...I just don't know what to do. the_ed17 14:18, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments -

• Is it really necessary to put "other job" (located Background subsection, second last paragraph) into quotations?
  • No, I don't believe so... =)

• I made a difference between the History and the Present Day of the Book, in terms of subsection title size. Please take a look and tell me if you think it doesn't look right.
  • Good catch...that needed to be done.

• Like everyone else, it seems to me that the characters need work. I can understand the lack of official cites, but possibly getting information from the other books in the series could help. (Please forgive me if you have actually put in citations referring to the other novels in the series; I don't work with links and whatnot and so I tend to get lazy and avoid such editing)
  • I don't have any of the books (see below), but I'll do what I can from memory.

Otherwise, I can't seem to find anything else...yet. =P

I will help cutting down the plot when I find the time.

Great job doing this on your own.

--Sunsetsunrise (talk) 16:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments Allright, I've got around to editing the plot:

• I've slightly rewrote Distant Past. Please change anything if necessary, just note here please.
  • Minor, I removed some OR--we don't know if it is near our time...actually...hold on that for a sec...I might have a ref for that. The 2002 Q&A I think was about that (it's already a ref for a quote in the article). I'll check it.

• Just some minor stuff in From Shady Vale to Culhaven. Moved a ref to in front of the punctuation, and took out the dashes, put in a comma.
  • Thanks!

• Just took out an unneeded sentence in From Culhaven to Paranor. However, I would like for you to add in why the party decided to leave Shea. I forget the reason. XD
  • Ummmm problem: I don't have the book anymore, as I left it at home when I left for college... I'll try to rent it from a library.

• The stuff happening between From Culhaven to Paranor and In the Southland, seems to be missing.
  • See last note.

• In the Southland, as well as most of the plot summery seems to be choppy and not smoothly run. Have you got a copy editor? I suggest having one do a quick look at.
  • I copy-edited it quick and I will do so again after I go play kickball. =D

I can do the rewriting, but I'd like some replies for these comments. Plus, I haven't read it in about a year, so I'd probably have forgotten the details.

Same here, and I don't have the book. *Sob* =) the_ed17 20:43, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

--Sunsetsunrise (talk) 01:37, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.