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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Pale Emperor/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 22:47, 30 November 2016 [1].

The Pale Emperor edit

Nominator(s): Homeostasis07 (talk) 20:04, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about The Pale Emperor, the ninth studio album from rock band Marilyn Manson. It's currently a Good article, and has gone through the Peer review process. I believe it meets all the criteria for FA status. Homeostasis07 (talk) 20:04, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comment I reviewed this at PR, and I think the article is in good shape; once these minor points are fixed I expect to support.

  • One question left over from the PR: why do we care that Jimmy Chamberlin returned to the Smashing Pumpkins in an article about a Marilyn Manson album?
  • If you're going to quote "pure", I'd quote it first time and then not quote it afterwards, rather than the reverse.
  • I'd change "opined" to something like "said"; I know "opined" gets used a lot in this sort of section but I think it almost always sounds like the writer is straining for a verb other than "said". "Said" is almost invisible and very hard to overuse.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:33, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again Mike. I've taken care of all your points. Sorry about the Jimmy Chamberlin one. It must have slipped through the net somehow. Homeostasis07 (talk) 21:02, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. Looks good now; I've supported above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:38, 8 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Hi Homeostasis07, I think you've seen my first tentative poke of an edit. I'm going to give this a harder look today, which I hope to finish as quickly as possible. —Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 18:04, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alright, here we go:
  • I see on Marilyn Manson/Brian Warner's Wikipedia page that he's said that "Marilyn Manson" is "not a stage name. It's not my legal name ... Marilyn Manson is owned by Brian Warner, my real name." This seems to be a preference for being called Warner, not "Manson". I happened to think of this because it seems somewhat odd to call him "Manson," the last name, alone, since this really is just part of a sort-of-stage name and not really a "last name" — sort of like calling David Bowie "Stardust" on second reference, only stickier since Warner is more closely identified by that name. I also know that there is a classic confusion/distinction between Marilyn Manson, the person, and Marilyn Manson, the band. This is a complicated issue that probably requires consensus across multiple pages related to him. It seems like it would be appropriate to refer to him as "Manson" if he's referred to on a page about, say, Industrial rock, or really anything outside of pages about him, since it would be potentially confusing. Maybe those issues also apply in pages about him. I'm not really sure, but I think it's worth pondering whether "Warner" is better, perhaps with some notice early on the page: more accurate, seems to be preferred by the man himself, possibly clearer writing.
This is a tricky issue. If you take everything that Manson has ever said, a case could be made for Brian Warner. However, he is known as Marilyn Manson professionally. The only time you ever see his given name being used is during album reviews written by someone who doesn't like him - this one, for example. Band members refer to him as Manson: www.mansonwiki.com/wiki/Interview:2000_Kerrang! Even his dad calls him "Manson". Homeostasis07 (talk) 23:11, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you saw that I removed some of the Twiggy info from the lead. However, some of those facts would be interesting and better-suited for inclusion in the body, particularly the fact that this was his first time sitting out since his return to the band.
  • "On June 25, bassist Fred Sablan..." The tethering of a specific date here, but not other places, is a little odd, especially because I don't have a clear sense of what year it is by the time this is mentioned. I'd recommend either including more dates, or at least years or month/year (for example, when is "three days before he was due to begin a tour"?)
  • Template:Pull quote is supposed to be for pull quotes, aka magazine-like visual repetitions of quotes already in the text, not block quotes. I don't really think this is the best policy because people love to use that template for block quotes but people seem to adhere to it.
  • The sample of "The Mephistopheles of Los Angeles" requires a caption with a description of the sample and an explanation of what musical elements are commented on, to justify its fair use. As a model you can refer to the sample boxes on OK Computer#Composition.
  • This is neither here nor there, but I'm not totally convinced of the notability or need for a MarilynManson.com article.
Shall I remove the link to MarilynManson.com in the Release and artwork section, or—? Homeostasis07 (talk) 23:11, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Editions of the album sold at Walmart stores..." This sentence screams out for a quote from Manson from the source, since Walmart-bashing sass is his bread and butter.
  • Since you discuss Bates' departure from the touring band, it would be a good idea to include an earlier sentence listing the original touring line-up, since the complicated lineup changes and inclusion of new members would make it difficult for even a long-time fan to keep track, let alone a reader with no knowledge of the band.
  • This is very recent but isn't Manson's tour with Slipknot getting bad press for his intoxicated appearance and sloppy performing? Worth mentioning here, or in that tour's article?
I've been procrastinating about making an article for the tour, because I think it can be adequately summarized in The Hell Not Hallelujah Tour. A lot of the stuff online is just tabloid fodder, and grossly exaggerated: Rock N Roll Experience Magazine created this video disproving a lot of the nonsense. I think it'd be sort of pointless to point out that a bunch of sources claimed that X and Y happened, but then be able to clarify in the next sentence that neither actually occurred. What do you think? Homeostasis07 (talk) 23:11, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article relies a lot on a narrative that The Pale Emperor is Manson's best work in some time. I think this narrative is well-grounded in the sources. However, there is an issue that a reader with no knowledge of Manson's previous works has no footing in what this means. I think a brief introductory paragraph in the background would serve the article well, just to generally acquaint the reader with the idea that Manson has a generally agreed upon golden era of his late-90s/early 00s work, that he's had various hiatuses or troubles, and that at a certain point critical response to his new albums had chilled. This will prepare the reader to understand the arc of his career and how The Pale Emperor fits in.
  • "with a Kerrang! review echoing a similar sentiment." I'd like to know a bit more here — Kerrang! is a big deal among hard rock publications, and especially consider the review is not linked, meaning the reader has to rely on whatever representation you offer.
  • You should include an archive link for every single source. Most can be found at archive.org or are easy to back up there. Trust me, this will save more articles at FAR in the future than any single improvement. Links die all the time and archived urls on deck, just in case, should be mandatory for featuring imho. Just add archiveurl, archivedate, and deadurl=no.
  • Let me know when you've responded and I'll take another look. —Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 21:07, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken care of every point you've raised above, except for the 3 that I commented on. Let me know what you think. Homeostasis07 (talk) 23:11, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Thanks for taking care of all of those points. I think considering that this album was released not so long ago, you've done an amazing job aggregating all the sources into an FA-quality article, without the recentness resulting in any serious gaps in the story. The points you addressed above are fine as is — I think the convention of calling him Manson rather than Warner makes sense, but just wanted to double-check; as long as that article exists the links are fine; and whether accounts of Manson's behavior on tour are sensationalized or not (and as you pointed out it seems that they are), they're certainly not required for this article. Well done. —BLZ · talk 00:01, 25 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: I've got a few problems with the sourcing of this one. The lead is OK, but a little confusing in places. However, in the first paragraph of "Background", I have found several problems with sourcing. I'm quite sure that what the article says is true, and that there are sources that back up the statements. Indeed, I found such evidence myself. But the sources cited for several statements do not do what is claimed of them. Mainly we seem to be stretching what they say and drawing our own conclusions, which is basically WP:SYNTHESIS. I think this is fixable, but I'm a little worried that there were so many issues in one paragraph. For that reason, I have to oppose, and I would recommend looking carefully at each statement and making sure that the information is in the source that has been cited for that statement. It may just be a case of moving things around a little, but it needs doing. Feel free to argue or discuss, but I'll take some convincing on this one at the moment. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:56, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to review the article, @Sarastro1:. That entire first paragraph was a fairly recent addition, and was based the suggestions above. Although I think it's a good idea to have such information as background to the album, I'm not 100% convinced that such a paragraph is totally necessary here. I remember reading some decent articles at The Guardian and Los Angeles Times on the band recently, so I'll have a look and see what I can do. But I would be more than willing to remove that entire paragraph, if it would mean we could proceed with the nomination. I'll work on this and your comments below over the next couple of hours. Thanks. Homeostasis07 (talk) 00:29, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I actually think the paragraph is a good idea, it's just the sourcing that needs to be sorted. There are a few ways to do it and it might be easier to cut the number of sources and just cite less often; a few of the sources would support a lot of the paragraph. Sarastro1 (talk) 00:48, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The album was released in standard and deluxe editions on CD and 2×LP vinyl, as well as a box set": Not a huge fan of "as well as" here. Why not just "The album was released in standard and deluxe editions on CD and 2×LP vinyl, and as a box set"? And why not expand on what the box set was? Just a word or two.
Fixed, I think. There are details about the collectors box in the last paragraph of Release and artwork. Which point do you think would be best to include? Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The standard version of the album contains ten tracks, while the deluxe edition includes three acoustic versions as bonus tracks.": "While" seems an odd choice of word here. Again, why not just "and", or a semi-colon if we want some variety?
Fixed. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The album features drummer Gil Sharone, formerly of The Dillinger Escape Plan, but does not include songwriting or performance contributions from bassist Twiggy, who was busy with his own projects.": It's not clear to me why this sentence is here. The first part of the sentence talks about who the drummer is, then we talk about how the bassist did not write for the album. Are we discussing personnel or writing? I think it's worth having separate sentence if that is the case. Similarly, this is written as if it is unusual that Twiggy did not write; this suggests to me that either all the band members wrote for the album (in which case we should say so) or that Twiggy normally wrote (in which case we should say so). I think we need to help the reader here.
I've separated the sentences about Gil and Twiggy. I've reworded Twiggy's sentence to: "It was the first album since his return to the band in 2008 to not include songwriting or performance contributions from bassist Twiggy, who was busy with his own projects." which is sourced in the Background section. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It spawned three official singles...": Spawned? Why not "Three official singles were released..."?
Changed. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's also a little confusing in the Background section that Marilyn Manson refers to both the individual and the band without distinguishing them.
Both the band and its frontman go by the same name, so yeah, this can get confusing. I've used "Marilyn Manson" as sparingly as I could here, preferring instead to use "the band", "the group", etc. Maybe it might help for me to link the first instance of Marilyn Manson in the prose to Marilyn Manson (band), and the first case of "Manson" to Marilyn Manson. The man himself goes by Manson. You'd never come across a source referring to the band in the singular. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Marilyn Manson was one of the most controversial and commercially successful hard rock bands of the late 90s.": Whenever I see a list of 4 references after a statement like this, I worry a lot. Either the sourcing is weak, or there is synthesis, or we are hedging our bets. I think this is the latter; the current ref 2 does not really support the sentence, nor does ref 4 support it strongly, and the website does not seem the most reliable. I think the other two refs would suffice if something stronger, such as from a biography or profile can be used (such as the Rolling Stone profile used later).
I've removed those two problematic sources. The ones left - Metal Hammer and The Huffington Post - do refer to them as "one of the most iconic and controversial" acts of "the last 20 years". Maybe late 90s isn't correct. Will I change that to "of the last two decades"? Also, removed the stuff about commercially successful. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This controversy peaked in 1999, when news media falsely scapegoated the band for influencing the perpetrators of the Columbine High School massacre, which Manson has said "totally shoved [my career] in the dirt".[5] Subsequent albums were released to mixed reviews from both critics and fans alike, and waning commercial success resulted in the band being dropped by its long-time record label Interscope in 2009": A bit of a problem here. The source used does not support everything in these sentences; for example, it does not say that the "media" blamed him, but it says the "Christian right" did and it says that he was "scapegoated". While it may be true that he was "falsely" scapegoated, this source does not verify that, so we would need a source that explicitly said so. To be pedantic,it does not say that the perpetrators were influenced, just that the event was, but I think that would be OK from this source. Nor does the source say that the controversy peaked in 1999. And the source does not say that reviews were mixed, but that the albums "were mostly panned by both critics and fans". And it does not say that he was dropped by Interscope for falling sales, just that he was dropped.
I've re-worded a lot of this. I've added The Guardian as a reference for the first sentence, which does say "After the Columbine High School massacre in 1999, fingers pointed at Manson. It was falsely reported that the killers had been fans and were influenced by his music, making Manson a scapegoat and a bastion of toxic values." I've also changed the latter part to "Subsequent albums were criticized by both critics and fans alike, and the band was dropped by its long-time record label Interscope in 2009." The source says "panned", but that doesn't sound very encyclopedic to me. I've opted for "criticized" instead. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The first album released under this new deal was 2012's Born Villain, which was heralded as a return to form": The source only gives CNN's view that is was a return to form, and it does not support that it was the first album for his new label.
Gave a better source. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Manson suffered from chronic depression during this period": The source does not support "chronic depression" ("In subsequent interviews, Von Teese pointed to Manson's alleged infidelities, substance abuse and demons (inner, not pets). He blamed depression and a basic reluctance to change his ways."). Additionally, as written it looks as if his depression was linked to his career; it does not say so outright, but there is a subtle suggestion The source does not make any such links.
  • "which was exacerbated by heavy drug use": This is not in the source. The source has "For nearly two hours, Manson touched on nearly every aspect of his life, from his $200,000 on-tour drug habit to being blamed for school shootings to the depression he suffered after splitting from his girlfriend" which does not link depression and drugs. The only other relevant mention of drugs is "Do drugs and drink when you’re happy, not when you’re sad. It has a great effect. But I can’t say that I did that the whole time." but that does not support the statement either.
  • "the breakdown of numerous personal relationships": The link with depression is not supported. The source has "And though he doesn't address it outright, that dark period coincides with Manson's protracted breakup with ex-fiancée Evan Rachel Wood." but that is not discussing depression being exacerbated.
  • "as well as his mother's advanced-stage Alzheimer's disease and dementia": And again, I can find no link to depression, which is what we are making here. Although it does link his relationship problems with his depression.
I've taken the liberty of re-arranging some of your comments here, for readability. Everything between this comment and my previous one has been wiped clean from the article, so should no longer be an issue. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm stopping here as there are just too many sourcing problems to make it worth continuing at the moment. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:56, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've dealt with everything you've commented on so far. Let me know what you think. Sorry your experience reviewing this article started out so atrociously. As I said before, that first paragraph was a recent addition - I should've taken better care of it beforehand. A lot more work went in to the rest of the article, and is sourced much better, I promise. ;) Thanks again for all your time. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: OK, the sourcing issues above seem to be sorted and I've checked one or two other sources which seem fine. . I've struck the oppose and will have a look at the rest of the article. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:30, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

More comments: A few more spot checks of the sourcing showed no problems. Generally looks good. I did a few minor copy-edits, but the prose is fine. I've a few little issues with WP:PROSELINE and over-using quotes, but if we can sort these out I'll be happy to support. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:13, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm still finding it confusing in the switch from band to person in background. As mentioned above, linking the band on first mention might be a way forward.
  • I'm not a fan of "On 23 November, Sarastro wrote a review" formatting. This makes it slightly WP:PROSELINE-y and I think the dates could be taken out of statements like "On September 3, Manson announced that the band's new album was "prepared for landing"" and "On June 25, bassist Fred Sablan announced that he had left the band on good terms" without any great loss.
  • Are we overdoing the quotes slightly? Especially in the composition and style section, I'd prefer a little more paraphrasing and less quotation. But that may be a preference thing.
  • The promotion and singles section falls into PROSELINE as well I think, and could stand a little bit of re-writing to make it less like a list of dates.
  • And again, I think the review section uses too many quotes. Do we really need a quotation from every review that we mention? Sarastro1 (talk) 23:13, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your input, Sarastro1. I think I've dealt with all of your comments above. I've removed a lot of the dates from the prose; completely reworked the Composition and style section to eliminate all but the most necessary quotes; ditto for Critical reception (well, except some of the completely un-paraphrase-able quotes: Kerrang!, for instance). One thing I'm a bit unsure of in the latter section: the italicizing of publication names. I've been operating under the assumption that the names of physical print media (Rolling Stone, NME, Kerrang!, etc.) should be italicized in the prose, while online sources shouldn't. But I see a bunch of online sources (The AV Club, Consequence of Sound, Drowned in Sound, The Quietus, PopMatters, Loudwire) have been italicized. Should I leave those alone or change them? Thanks. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:02, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken another stab at the Critical reception section. What do you think of it, Sarastro1? 8 of the 22 reviews in the prose have quotes on them. Is that sufficient, or should I remove a couple more? (I'm having a hard time paraphrasing the ones left). Homeostasis07 (talk) 01:56, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support (including spot checks of sources): I'm happy to support now, with just one little point below. The changes look good, and I think the level of quotes is OK now. Nice work, and thank you for your patience. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:47, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Fred Sablan departed the band on good terms": Taking the date out was my idea, but the only problem here now is that this sentence just sits there with little context. Could it be cut entirely? If not, we need to make it seem a little more necessary. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:47, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've amended the sentence on Fred Sablan (to include info about him being closely linked to Twiggy's Goon Moon project); and also removed one more quote from the Critical reception section. Thanks for your support. Homeostasis07 (talk) 02:57, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note -- Did I miss an image licensing review? If not pls request one at the top of WT:FAC. Tks/cheers. Ian Rose (talk) 14:24, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • File:Marilyn Manson - The Pale Emperor.jpeg: Non-free image that is being used to illustrate the album cover. There is a fair use rationale but no explanation as to why WP:NFCC#1, WP:NFCC#2 are met. And the explanation for WP:NFCC#3 looks fairly vague to me.
  • File:Jim Morrison 1969.JPG: Free image on Commons, free license seems legit to me. Being used to illustrate what influenced the album creation, a topic discussed in the adjacent section.
  • File:Muddy Waters.jpg: Free image on Commons from Flickr. No EXIF, I can't help but notice that the Flickr user's other uploads appear to have mixed themes and EXIFs, but it passed a license review on Commons. Being used to illustrate what influenced the album creation, a topic discussed in the adjacent section.
  • File:Marilyn Manson - Rock am Ring 2015-8693.jpg: Free image on Commons, about a performance discussed in passing in the adjacent section but not necessarily pertinent to the article topic. OTRS license.

Images may benefit from ALT text. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:20, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Jo-Jo Eumerus:. I've amended the fair use rationale for the album cover, and every image on the article now has alt. text (the Muddy Waters and Jim Morrison images already had them). Is there anything I could do about the Exif/Metadata for the Muddy Waters image? Homeostasis07 (talk) 21:21, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This seems a fairly minor point so I'll not hold up promotion over it -- Jo-Jo, if you do want to respond, perhaps do so on the article talk page? Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:46, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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