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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:41, 29 August 2009 [1].

The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie edit

Nominator(s): ATC . Talk 13:50, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Toolbox

It has been through many copyedits, and has received a WP:GAN. Now I think it fits the criteria as a featured article. I originally nominated it on June 23rd, but was on vaction for a month, so I had to withdraw the nomination. I am ready to nominate it again. Thanx! ATC . Talk 13:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I recommend excluding the non-free images from the "Plot" section because per WP:NFC, screenshots should be for critical commentary, and these images appear to be decorative. The "Plot" section is a description of the topic at hand and not commentary about it. Judging from the real-world context surrounding the film, I'm not sure if any non-free image besides the identifying "cover art" poster is appropriate for the article. —Erik (talk • contrib) 14:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply I removed the pictures as requested. Could you clarify what "cover art" means exactly? Thanx! ATC . Talk 16:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NFC says images are acceptable as "cover art" to identify a topic. For example, a book's article will show the book cover, an album's article will show the album cover, and a film's article will show the poster. That's why the image in the infobox is okay. :) —Erik (talk • contrib) 18:55, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Images need alt text as per WP:ALT. Please click the "alt text" button in the toolbox at the upper left of this review page. Eubulides (talk) 07:07, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Eubulides, I think I understand, but not exactly how to "alt text" the photo's description?; I saw the review page. Also, Erik, I got rid of the photos displaying the commentary, that was also displaying cover-art.

Please see WP:PIC for how to add alt text to ordinary images (the first example uses alt text). Please see {{Infobox film}} for how to add alt text to the infobox's image. Eubulides (talk) 07:14, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I know someone personally, her name is Toni Seawright, and her son, Qaasim Middleton, stars as the guitarist for the show, and Seawright is sending me photos of production, herself, Qaasim, filming, etc... I am waiting for them and should get them soon. Seawright's article was in bad shape and almost deleted, until I fixed it up. I'll be adding some to the film as well, because I will be getting photos for that too, because she gave me permission. Thanx! ATC . Talk 21:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Make sure that the person who holds the copyright, usually the photographer, not the photograph owner, gives permission for them to be uploaded. If they do, get them to send it to Wikimedia by WP:OTRS, or get them to email you permission, and you can send that to OTRS, otherwise you might find that it gets removed, or you'll have to use it per the WP:NFCC. Matthewedwards :  Chat  22:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

I don't have time to do a big review at the moment, but as this is a kids topic, which is under-represented by good and featured content, here's what I saw on a quick read through:
  • The first sentence is heavily linked. Try to reduce some of them. I think those easter-egg type links ([[2005 in film|2005]]) are a waste -- no body will be inspired to click on it. Perhaps add it to a See also section?
  • There's some guideline somewhere (I've lost it at the moment) about not wikilinking consecutive words. In the first sentence again, we have rock-mockumentary family comedy film. Can any of these be done away with, perhaps moving them to the body of the article or just rearranging the words?
  • "the other band members prefer to perform the cellist Thomas's composition" - I think the "the" and the "s" after the apostrophy should be removed to read "the other band members prefer to perform cellist Thomas' composition"
  • "Rosalina (DiMeco)" You should probably add the actress' first name here and wikilink, since it's the first time we see it. Then you can remove it from the "The film also features..." sentence. Same for when you mention Thomas. Who plays this character?
  • "We're 'the naked brothers band!'" -- does this need to be in single quotes? I'm not sure, please check
  • "dorky" -- can we get something more encyclopedic? WP:TONE It may be a kids movie, but ou shouldn't resort to their language
  • The refs in the first paragraph aren't necessary. It's all mentioned and cited again in the body.
  • "drinking and spilling cans of the soft drink all over himself." I don't think you can drink a can of soda all over yourself ;)
  • "milkaholic." -- reverse the punctuation
  • "the film ends with fireworks[4] that spell out "The Naked Brothers Band."" any reason for the mid-sentence placement of the reference?
  • "When Nat—who lives in Lower Manhattan" -- does this mean now, or when he was 4? If it refers to the present will it be updated when he moves, and how will you know when he does?
  • "We're the naked brothers band!" earlier you put this in single quotes, now its italicised? Is there a need for either? At least be consistent
  • Perhaps a {{see also}} to The Naked Brothers Band (band) at the Development section? I feel that too much of this is about the development of the band, rather than the development of the film
  • I don't think car needs wikilinking. It doesn't add to the context or understanding of the article, and most, if not all, readers of this article will be aware of what one is so it can be safely removed
  • Check WP:NC for songs, I think "it" in "That's How it Is" should be capitalised
  • "Got No Mojo," "Hardcore Wrestlers (with Inner Feelings)," "I Need You," "Sorry Girl," and "If There Was a Place to Hide." "Rathskeller Polka," "Rathskeller Waltz," "Naked Party Polka," and "Naked Tango." "Crazy Car," "Motormouth," "That's How It Is," "Hardcore Wrestlers with Inner Feelings," and "Rosalina." punctuation (," and .") needs reversing
  • Add {{clear}} at the end of the awards section. The quote box is causing the section title for the References to be pushed into the center of the screen at some resolutions.

That's all I have for now. Enjoyed reading it, well done Matthewedwards :  Chat  17:02, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Okay thanx for your requests for improving the article for FAC status, User:Matthewedwards. I did most of them, but you asked me a good question about why there is a reference tag in the mid-sentence, the last part of the sentence I, unfortunately, can't find a source for it. Should I delete the phrase: that spell out "The Naked Brothers Band", if their is no source for it, or maybe even, a {{fact}} tag if their is no source to be found?—This is part of a comment by ATC (of 21:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)), which was interrupted by the following: [reply]

Technically, it's doesn't need a citation because the film itself is the citation for plot; however, it looks bad if the final sentence of a paragaph (especially the last paragraph of a section) isn't referenced. I looked at the reference, which says "The film’s happy ending culminates with a familiar, impromptu concert on the roof that ends with fireworks", so you could do something like that. Adding a fact tag will mean the article will not become Featured. Matthewedwards :  Chat  22:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also a few others I'm confused about: that sentence about Nat who lives in Lower Manhattan; Nat was born in Los. Angeles, and moved to Lower Manhattan a few weeks later, where he lived at the time; his father introduced him to Jazz music and The Beatles; he still and did live at Lower Manhattan at the that time. How do you think I should re-word it so it is clearer?—This is part of a comment by ATC (of 21:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)), which was interrupted by the following: [reply]

You need to say that he lived there at the time then. It's currently in the wrong tense. A reference would be necessary, too. Matthewedwards :  Chat  22:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and, their wasn't much more in development then what I put, but actually, as I think of it their is an unreliable resource online, it was a blog on the "BillyBlog" website. It was a mother explaining about, in NYC in mid-2004, going out with her family for dinner on her birthday. Outside of the restaurant, she saw a filming crew and a lady came up to her, walking to her as if "her prayers have been answered." She said her name was Polly Draper and was the star of "Thirtysomething", and that she was filming a mock documentary about her sons' real life band. Draper asked if her two 7-year-old daughters could be extras in the film. Their was more to the story, should I add it or not?; they had a big part in it for half of a second. ATC . Talk 21:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So this is an actual interview with the Naked Brother's mother? If so, an argument could be made that as a primary source it could be used, but I'm not entirely sure about that. Check with one of the reference folks. Matthewedwards :  Chat  22:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Matthewedwards, I think you misinterpreted what I said about the blog on "BillyBlog"; their was no interview with Polly Draper. What happened was their was this two sisters, about the age of 7 or 8, I'll have to look at it again to clarify, and their mom wrote an article about it - when I say "their mom", I do not mean Polly Draper, but the sisters' mom, who wrote it, with clips of the scene she was talking about from YouTube, in addition to her blog. Also, okay, I will ask Toni, if she could clarify that I could use the photos, and contact the photographer, for copyright legal reasons, and then I have to contact WikiMedia to confirm the permission of using the pictures. ATC . Talk 22:42, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then no. Any old body can claim to have been approached to appear or to have their kids appear. Unless it appears in a reliable source, or from an interview with Draper or a casting director, it's no good. Matthewedwards :  Chat  02:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also what is your opinon on how I reworded " "The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie" is a rock-mockumentary family comedy film about a children's rock band." TO " "The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie" is a family film, in the genre of a mock documentary parody; it's also in the style of a rock documentary, spoofing a children's rock band.—Preceding unsigned comment added by ATC (talk • contribs) 23:02, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, still a bit of a problem. It sounds repetitive now, because of the "mock documentary"/"rock documentary" and "parody"/"spoof" thing. I'll try to think about an alternative overnight. Matthewedwards :  Chat  02:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, User:YellowMonkey and User:Steve have helped me type a lot of the article, I'll ask one of them. Thanx! ATC . Talk 03:16, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have an idea, why don't I just revise the sentence to: "The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie" is a family film, in the genre of a mock documentary parody, spoofing a children's rock group." Let me know what you think when you get the chance. All the best, ATC . Talk 04:13, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds okay. :) Matthewedwards :  Chat  21:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:49, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed the http://www.curtainup.com/gettingintoheaven.html source link to http://www.theatermania.com/content/news.cfm?int_news_id=3686. ATC . Talk 19:50, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I found a more reliable resource, it was a {{cite news}} tag. What do you think? ATC . Talk 23:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ealdgyth,
I found and changed all of the non-reliable sources to reliable ones accept for this one: http://blogcritics.org/video/article/dvd-review-the-naked-brothers-band/. Though, the site might not be so reliable; a professional author wrote it, it explains more here: http://blogcritics.org/writers/ann-hagman-cardinal/.
If I could find another source, I would but some information aren't referenced anywhere else, or some reliable sources have inaccurate information, e.g. All Media Guide says that the band was called The Silver Bullets, but it wasn't it was The Silver Boulders; though I can't find a source explaining about The Gold Boulders, even that blogcritics article is wrong, and other sources that are reliable say that it was called The Golden Boulders, which is wrong. I actually don't know what to about The Gold Boulders situation.
ATC . Talk 00:14, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave this one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:34, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments, round 2

  • See if you can provide context to readers, so instead of "Originally an independent film before being taken up by Nickelodeon, it premiered on the channel on January 27, 2007" you could do "... Cable television channel Nickelodeon..." phrasing on that sentence needs tightening, too. "being taken up" is a bit lazy.
  • "The film stars Nat Wolff and Alex Wolff, real life brothers who portray themselves. The film is based on the real life band that Nat formed with his best friends in preschool." the two sentences repeat "The film", "the film" and "real life", "real life". Try "The film stars brothers Nat and Alex Wolff portraying themselves, and is based on the band that Nat formed with his best friends in preschool"
  • "In the film, the brothers' are able to manage their superstardom until the former wants to perform a song he wrote about his crush" -- who is the former? It uses "in the film" again
  • "Nat wrote all of the songs performed in the film" how about "Nat wrote all of the songs from the soundtrack"?
  • "Filming took place in mid-2004 in New York City, with scenes filmed in the family's real life apartment." repeates filming/filmed. Consider "Principal photography took place in mid-2004 in New York City, with scenes filmed in the family's real life apartment.", although again, there is the term "real life"
  • "(in which Draper starred)" can this be de-parenthesized?
  • "The band features ... and manager Cooper." Is Cooper actually part of the band?
  • "The film is presented in documentary format, with cameras that follow the siblings through their stage performances and private lives. Typical themes depicted in the movie involve the management of relationships within the group, particularly issues revolving around musical disputes, romance between band members, and fame.[6] John B. Williams is responsible for signing the band to Who's the Man records, the label that brought the group to fame." It's a bit unclear as to whether this is a documentary, a fictional story produced in a documentary format, or what. Is John B. responsible for signing the band in real life, or in the film?
  • "The film starts out with" --> "The film begins with" or "opens"
  • "After the show, the members explain how they started as a band" do they discuss this among themselves as just regular conversation, or are they explaining it as part of the documentary, to the camera or interviewer? It doesn't really matter, because the entire sentence can be removed without harming the rest of the synopsis
  • "Jesse Cook (Jesse Draper)" why is the actress's name being given here, but none of the other actors names are? It seems to break the flow of the sentence
  • Don't use contractions such as "he's"
  • "Josh's stepsister Rosalina,[4] who is eleven years old." --> "Josh's eleven-year-old stepsister, Rosalina.[4]"
  • "At first, Nat and Alex think that they are living the good life," -- Both "At first" and "living the good life" don't sound like the kind of professional style language needed at FA level
  • "except for Cooper and Alex"
  • "end up" -- can anything else be used?
  • "After watching the media talking about the band's split on television, Nat writes a song about the split," repetitive on "the split"
  • The entire "Alex's lemon-lime soda addiction..." paragraph can be removed. What does this add to the overall understanding of the plot? It's an entire paragraph dedicated to a very small character development that isn't mentioned at all later in the article.
  • "watched all of The Beatles' films, including Help!." why mention only Help!? Is this particulary important?
  • "Alex learned to play the saxophone at the age of two." -- wow, a musical virtuoso. Perhaps he began to learn how to play?
  • "Draper recalled that "When it was Alex's solo he would hold up the fake plastic saxophone Nat made for him and [said], 'Mommy, I have the hiccups and I have to go potty,' "[8] she explained." -- Draper recalled that.... she explained.
  • please unlink Christmas. It's irrelevant to this article, and besides, who in the English speaking world doesn't know what it is?
  • "As the younger brother became proficient at playing drums, by watching tapes of Starr, Nat had a change of heart and allowed Alex to join the band." first comma isn't needed
  • Draper recalled that "Nat decided he wanted to film his own sitcom, so we did a film called Don’t Eat Off My Plate." "I pretended to interview his friends and do a documentary." -- either split up the two comments with some text, or use ... or something
  • Same with "...Spinal Tap meets The Little Rascals was my concept." "I [also] wanted it to be very Beatle-ish..." You don't have to add "Draper continued", as long as it from the same source, ... would be fine
  • Same with Draper recalled, "We would sneak into locations and run."[1] "Julianne (Moore) was the first one to shoot a scene in it. She had to go away to do a real movie," Draper recalled. Also not "Draper recalled" twice
  • In fact, that whole paragraph is just a quote from Draper. Use the <blockquote> markup
  • "The film was shot over a five-week period in mid-2004, on a budget of less than US$1 million." no need for comma
  • "the executive producers were (Draper's brother) Tim, Draper and Wolff." work the bit in parenthesis into the regular sentence
  • "All of the archival footage in the film was genuine material, which Robert Levi—David's father—contributed." ref please
  • "The elder Wolff" this is used in a few places, but it's a bit ambiguous whether it refers to the elder Wolff brother or the father
  • The post production section doesn't sit well for me. Post production is about editing, scoring, etc, not about awards and development of a TV series.
  • Personally, I don't like articles to be self-referential, so in the International debuts section, "the worldwide premieres of The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie are listed below:" just sits wrong. It's like lazy writing, let's stick it in a table so I don't have to write sentences.
  • In the DVD section, it says the movie lasts for 84 minutes. Is this different from the TV version of the film (minus commercial breaks)? If not, perhaps it belongs in the production section. The DVD bonus features sounds a bit advertise-y, too. I noticed the reference doesn't provide any critical commentary on the features, but simply lists them as an afterthought. I'd think about removign them.
  • "he said that "They're just real" shouldn't a comma appear before all speech quotes? I've seen this elsewhere in the article and it's just struck me. Check with the MOS or ask User:Tony1 - he'll know.
  • "it was placed on the top 100 Billboard Charts" There's a specific article for this chart

There's a lot of prose work that needs fixing. I won't be so rude as to ask your age, but remember you're not writing for a kids' audience, so some of the language needs maturing. Try to find one or two copy editors. I haven't checked to see if the article corresponds to what's in the references, but I will ask what makes the references with red-linked publishers reliable or notable. Often if they don't have an article here, they won't meet WP:RS or WP:N. Matthewedwards :  Chat  19:27, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply I understand and fixed all of your concerns, but the article already went through a lot of copy edits from User:JamieS93, User:Steve, and User:YellowMonkey. Also, their is a few things that I currently do not understand:

  1. I wrote Allie DiMeco's character, Rosalina's age ordered like that because all of the sources online don't say the actress's age, and the ones that do inaccurately say she's nine-years-old.
  2. Their is no sources online stating that Robert Levi provided the archival footage, though IMDb falsely claims and lists Donna M. Fields as the person who provided the footage. I also know that Robert Levi actually contributed the archival footage, because it was credited on the screen. In addition, at the New York TimesCenter Stage interview, Nat said that all of the archival footage of the band in the film was real, but didn't say anything about who provided the footage.
  3. This [2] from Variety and [3] from IMDb says that it was 90 minutes in the United States and 83 minutes in Germany, which includes commercials. My DVD at home says its 92 minutes. Though, the NYTimes said the film had minor changes and developed into a series.
  • I don't know how necessary it is to add this into the article, but before Nickelodeon put down the original website for the film, created by the Hamptons International Film Festival—they showed clips of a few scenes and one of those clips had a slightly different scene than when it premiere on Nickelodeon. In the clip, Jesse Draper's character, Jesse Cook, was introducing herself on the tour bus, she then was helping a band member with their school work, and while she was doing so, Alex was sitting right next to her and starts sniffing her breast; maybe it was originally a satire (with irony in it) and prompted Nickelodeon to edit some scenes that would be inappropriate for the channel's age-group. Their is still clips of that scene flying around in the internet space. I saw comments by people, who said they were parents, and they were talking about how they thought this was inappropriate, and they said they blocked Nickelodeon through their parental controls.

ATC . Talk 02:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oh one more thing, I almost forgot to mention the situation with the "post-production" section. Well, post-production means everything that took place after its been filmed, because after the series was in development, the film became the pilot episode of the series. So, if you think it should go in the other section I'll put there, but that's also why I put the "audience award" part, because that led to Albie Hecht discovering them as a hit sensation, and took the film to Nickelodeon to devise into a television series. ATC . Talk 03:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, well to answer the point about the age, are you saying it's Rosalina's age, or the actress's age? My point was that the sentence wasn't structured well, not that it may be incorrect.
  • If there is no source, it is unverified. It should be removed.
  • So you have a copy of the DVD, which say it's 92-minutes long, but the article says it's 84. I don't get it.
  • If you can find sources for the breast-sniffing incident, that might be worth including. It could probably go in the reception section, you know, that parents were unhappy and blocked the channel.
  • Read Post-production, which tells you what exactly post-production is, basically, editing, sound, special effects, etc etc. It reads more like an "Aftermath" type section, although I'm not suggesting tit be called that. Where does it say that the film is the series pilot? I can't find that in the article.
  • Also, "brought the film for the network" -- I have a feeling it should be "bought" as in purchased.
  • Nice work on addressing some of my other concerns in a speedy manner. Matthewedwards :  Chat  05:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments, Round 3

Note that I've stricken my comments from Round 2 that I consider resolved, but there are still quite a few that haven't been.
  • Now the sentence says "It was originally an independent film before it was devised by the cable television channel, Nickelodeon" but Nickeloden didn't devise it. They acquired broadcasting rights
  • The film stars brothers Nat and Alex Wolff portraying themselves -- don't forget to Wikilink their names - this is the first time they're presented to the reader
  • Would you mind changing "scenes filmed in the family's apartment." to "interior scenes filmed in the Wolff family's apartment."?
  • "Nat and Alex thought everything was going their way" what everything? What way? I still find this sentence confusing.
  • "Draper recalled, "Nat kept putting signs on his door: 'I want to be a child actor!' I said, 'No, it's too brutal.'"[13] According to a New York Times article in early-2007, Draper recalled that "Nat decided he wanted to film his own sitcom, so we did a film called Don’t Eat Off My Plate." Draper also explained her role: "I pretended to interview his friends and do a documentary."" The whole thing still reads oddly to me
  • "C.D." --> "compact disc" because it's the first time you've used it, after that you can use CD, but without the full stops

Reply How do you like my recent changes? To answer your question clearer, Amazon.com said it was 84 minutes and IMDb said it was 90 minutes in the United States, and 83 minutes in Germany including commercials, though my DVD at home says its 82 minutes; so I don't know what to put, though the back of my DVD is probably as accurate as it could be. I'll try to find a source that says the minutes on my DVD, and the screening at the Hamptons Film Festival could differ from the minor edits Nickelodeon made. Speaking of which their is no article online stating that incident about Alex. ATC . Talk 15:28, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Also Cooper Pillot (the band manager) is a friend of the family in real life, but not their band manager; and John B. Williams didn't really sign them on his record company, Who's the Man? Records. That was a parody; because Who's the Man? was a film that Michael Wolff and John B. contributed the score to. But the plot is the story, not the reality of it. So why would I put in the Plot section what is true? Should I explain the reality of it in the plot too? ATC . Talk 01:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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