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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Teresa Cristina of the Two Sicilies/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain 02:56, 24 January 2011 [1].

Teresa Cristina of the Two Sicilies edit

Teresa Cristina of the Two Sicilies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Toolbox
Nominator(s): Lecen (talk) and • Astynax talk 12:38, 13 December 2010 (UTC) [reply]


We are nominating this for featured article because we both believe it has acchieved the high standards required. The article is about an Italian princess who married the second Brazilian Emperor, Dom Pedro II. I confess it was quite hard to write it due to the lack of sources. Since she had no participation at all in politics nor ever did any kind of extraordinary deed, almost all information regarding her is always taken from books written about her husband, where she is, at best, a blank supporting character. In structure, style, presentation, etc., the article itself is very similar to Pedro II of Brazil. Whoever read the latter, will notice that. Lastly, but certainly not least important, I would like to request constructive comments and criticisms. Please, avoid unnecessary trouble. Regards to all and thank you very much, Lecen (talk) 12:38, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Changed for another better version. I hope it's fine now. --Lecen (talk) 21:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is derived from the File:Flag_of_the_Kingdom_of_the_Two_Sicilies_1738.gif, and thus has the same source issues Fasach Nua (talk) 21:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removed the box since it's not that necessary. --Lecen (talk) 22:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FA Criterion 3 met Fasach Nua (talk) 16:45, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The use of a list of "Statesmen" and "Military" without a clear inclusion/exclusion criteria fails WP:V, and hence the article fails the preamble to the WP:FA Criteria, it may as well be a list of "My most favouritist Brazilian soldiers and politicians ever", for all the information it conveys! (unless in the entire history of the Brazilian Empire they only had a total of five soldiers) Fasach Nua (talk) 19:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since inclusion of every single renowned politican and military would prove problematic, I had to use a certain criteria for each case. In Military, I added the Duke of Caxias because he was the Commander-in-Chief of the Brazilian forces in the Platine War and in the War of the Triple Alliance. Count of Porto Alegre was the Commander-in-Chief of the victorious Brazilian army in the Platine War (you have to read the article to understand). Marquis of Erval was the Commander-in-Chief in the Uruguayan War. Count of Eu was the successor of Caxias as the commander-in-chief in the War of the Triple Alliance. Tamandaré was added because he was the commander-in-chief of the Brazilian navy in both Uruguayan War and in the War of the Triple Alliance. In other words, their names were not picked based on "whose favorite each one is". Instead, as useful and easy tool for readers who want to understand the Brazilian military history from the perspective of the military officers themselves. Thus, I chose the ones who commanded the army or navy in each war. I could have added the name of privates who left memories of the wars, but that would be highly arbitrary.
In the case of statesmen, I opted for the names of the politicians who are widely regarded as the Brazilian statesmen of the era. Bonifácio was one of the leaders of the Brazilian independence and is regarded in Brazil as a Founding Father. Paraná and Rio Branco were involved in every single major event that occurred in their lifetime. Were there other politicians who were renowned or had a major role in Brazilian history? Yes, there were. A name that can come to the mind of anyone who read those articles is Aureliano Coutinho, the Viscount of Sepetiba and leader of the Courtier Faction. He is certainly a major character, but is not regarded by historians as statesman. Paraná's colleagues and successors as leaders of the Conservative Party (the first Viscount of Uruguay, the Viscount of Itaboraí, etc...) are regarded as great politicians, but not as statesmen. The box is nothing more than an easy navigation tool for anyone who does not know Brazilian history. If someone wants to know more about the history of Pedro II's reign (1831-89) through the eyes of the Emperor, he/she should click on his article. But if a reader want to learn about the same period from the eyes of politicians, he/she should click on Paraná (for the period between 1831-56) and Rio Branco (1840 to 1880). This is why Teresa Cristina, which is right now a Featured article nominee, does not have her name in that infobox. I hope I was clear. If have you more doubts, feel free to ask. --Lecen (talk) 21:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The article is well written and backed by solid third-party sources. As for the comment above, I have no idea what Fasach Nua is talking about and fail to see how it relates to the article's nomination review. Limongi (talk) 20:32, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dab/EL check - no dabs or dead external links., 1 url redirect which I fixed. --PresN 00:21, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment As I see it, the article is very good, and the only information it lacks - aside from the fact, of course, that you can never have all information about someone in a article - is specific examples of charity projects and work of art which she benefitted or founded. It would be good to add at least some axemples of, say, a hosptal she founded, an organisation she gave her support, and an artist she promoted. The articles explain this very well, and makes clear that she played a great part in these activites, but it does not seem to give any specific examples of it. Otherwise, I can't notice anything which is missing. --Aciram (talk) 14:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, none of the sources state what exactly did she do. If you look carefuly in the references' section, you'll notice that none of the books is a biograph of Teresa Cristina. She is always a supporting character in the biographies written about her husband and not much information is given about her. Since she had no important role in Brazilian political history, she is quite often neglected. --Lecen (talk) 14:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: A well-written and well-sourced article. I know firsthand how difficult it is to write about subjects that are supporting characters in their respective histories, and commend you for achieving this. The article pays close attention to detail, but does not get bogged down in it. Kudos, and keep up the good work on other royal figures. Ruby2010 (talk) 17:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - An interesting article with a lot of reliably-sourced details about her. I have one suggestion: It might look better to remove the bolding from the list of her names. This is my personal opinion only.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:06, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: As only 3 of the 17 sources are in English, and none are online, there are obvious limitations to this review. I can only say that the sources look scholarly in nature and I have no reason to doubt they are. That leaves with just a couple of tiny nitpicks:-

  • Citations 64 and 65 require "pp." not "p." for their page ranges
  • A couple of the sources don't have the (in Portuguese) which I think they need.

Otherwise all looks OK as far as sources are concerned. Brianboulton (talk) 19:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed those, thank you very much.
The article itself is almost completely build upon three English-written sources, easily available not only in any U.S. library, but also in the internet. They are: "Isabel Orleans-Bragança: the Brazilian princess who freed the slaves" (here: [2]), "Citizen Emperor: Pedro II and the Making of Brazil, 1825-1891" (here: [3]) and "Princess Isabel of Brazil: gender and power in the nineteenth century" (here: [4]; although I used the Portuguese-translated edition that can be found here: [5]).
Nonetheless, I believe that almost all Portuguese-written books used as sources can be found in Google books. Some examples: "Machado de Assis e a crítica internacional" (here: [6]), "Vultos do Brasil: biografias, história e geografia" (here: [7]) and "Italianos no Brasil" (here: [8])
"Almanak Administrativo, Mercantil e Industrial (Almanaque Laemmert)", a 19th century book that was published every year is the one I use in my articles on aything related to titles, membership in chivalry orders, etc... All editions, from 1844 to 1889, can be found here: [9].
"As Barbas do Imperador: D. Pedro II, um monarca nos trópicos" has no online edition (here: [10]), although it has an English translated edition called "The Emperor's Beard" (here: [11]). A hope that helped. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 19:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The sources are great and it's really well written. I like how it's not overly trivial and it brings up some interesting facts about her life.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 01:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  1. Is her name really "Teresa Christine" in English? Theresa Christina or Teresa Christina or Theresa Christine seems just as English. I think a translation is unnecessary.
  2. Drop the full name from the lead: it's given in the infobox and if absolutely necessary can be given in the "Birth" section.
  3. Surely either King or Don but not both, at least for non-Iberians? I'd use either Francis or Francesco rather than add one in parentheses.
  4. "the throne of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies" would be easier to read as "the Neapolitan throne"
  5. In the lead numerals over ten are given as numbers, but in the "Marriage" section as words. I'd use numerals throughout.
  6. "had been allowed to become increasingly undermined" seems unnecessarily complex, can "had become increasingly undermined" suffice?
  7. The picture of Naples in the birth section is from 1748; I'd be inclined to either remove it or replace it with a picture from nearer her birth. DrKiernan (talk) 18:18, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reply
  1. The spellings of her name vary considerably in English and European sources. The article goes with Barman and other more recent references which simply give the Portuguese spelling, though the other spellings are still occasionally used, including in other Wikipedia articles.
  2. I agree that the full name doesn't need to be in the lead, as the lead is supposed to summarize information from the body of the article. I've removed it and moved its citation to the infobox.
  3. There is a difference between "King" (title) and "Don" (Spanish and Italian honorific which can be added to titles), but your point is taken and "Don" has been removed.
  4. I agree that "throne of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies" is awkward, but "Two Sicilies" is the name of the Kingdom. I've attempted to simplify to "who later became King Francis I of the Two Sicilies".
  5. I have changed the numbers to numerals.
  6. It wasn't that it had "become increasing undermined", but that it was actively "allowed to become increasingly undermined". It is a point that is taken up in other articles on the Empire during this period. I'll see if I can find a link so that readers who are puzzled by the statement can read more about this.
  7. Naples was a backwater, and I doubt much changed, but I'll alert Lecen to see if there is a usable picture nearer to 1800.
Thank you for taking the time to go over the article, for your corrections and for your suggestions. • Astynax talk 19:36, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, DrKiernan, thank you very much for taking your time to take a look at the article. I'll answer to the points related to the subject, while anything related to spelling and grammar I'll leave it to Astynax. i've seen that Astynax has answered before me and I'd like to say that I do not agree with some of the changes.
The name used is "Teresa Cristina", not "Theresa Christina", that is, the Portuguese-spelling of the name. I could perhaps change "Teresa Christine" to "Theresa Christina".
The full name used in the lead follows the same standard as in Pedro II of Brazil, another featured article. Is there a rule in Wikipedia that does not allow it in the lead or is that merely your personal taste?
Don is not the same as King. The Italian monarchy of Bourbon-Two Sicilies was a branch of the Spanish Bourbon Royal Family and had the same practices and traditions. Pedro II was known as Emperor Dom Pedro II. Juan Carlos of Spain is known as King Don Juan Carlos. The name is in its original version as Francesco because other characters have their original names (Pedro, not Peter; Teresa Cristina, not Theresa Christina).
Regards, --Lecen (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I never at any point complained about the name Teresa Cristina.
I don't think lengthy and unnecessary digressions as the second sentence of the lead meet the spirit of criteria 1a or 2a.
If you insist on Pedro Augusto rather than Pedro of Saxe-Coburg, then I think you should use Augusto Leopoldo rather than Augusto, since calling one brother Pedro Augusto and the other Augusto looks odd to people like me who are unfamiliar with the brothers. DrKiernan (talk) 21:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
DrKiernan, the name given to Pedro II's eldest grandchildren in history books are "D. Pedro Augusto" and "D. Augusto". About the painting, unfortunately, it was the oly one I was able to find at Commons that had a source, author and date. There are others, is true, but they lack more information. However, if you have a picture that could suit better, feel free to add. The other points raised by you were already resolved by Astynax. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 21:46, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The closest in date is probably File:SCHEDR LunNoch.jpg. I appreciate that the source is a dead link, but the original picture is in the Tretyakov Gallery [12]. This could be added to the image file in addition to the dead link to prove the source and information. I agree the town, people, boats and beach do not appear to have changed significantly in the 80 years separating the two pictures. It is up to you which you prefer. DrKiernan (talk) 22:32, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The painting you suggested portrayed Naples at night and was quite hard to see anything at it. I added another painting, from the same author that I believe it is better. Anything else? Regards, --Lecen (talk) 23:07, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I'm still concerned by the first paragraph of the lead. The inclusion of a parenthetical explanation of what "Dom" means in the first sentence of the article is an intrusive interruption. I know the difference between Emperor and Dom, and I have not complained about using "Emperor Dom Pedro I". I really think you should take out the explanation. Besides, there is a link for anyone who does not know what it means. The first paragraph as a whole should define the subject of the article and provide context, but it currently contains a digression about styles and titles which is not directly relevant to the topic of the article and is relatively trivial to feature in such a prominent place. I think the explanation of titles ought to be moved to the "Birth" section. I also still think that "King Don Francesco I (Francis I)" is unnecessarily complicated when he is never again referred to as "Francesco" at any point in the article, and something much simpler imparts essentially the same information:

Dona Teresa Cristina (English: Theresa Christina; 14 March 1822 – 28 December 1889), nicknamed "Mother of the Brazilians",[1] was the Empress consort of Emperor Dom Pedro II of Brazil, who reigned from 1831 to 1889. Born a Princess of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (also known as the Kingdom of Naples) in present-day southern Italy, she was the daughter of King Francis I of the Italian branch of the House of Bourbon, called Bourbon-Two Sicilies or Bourbon-Naples, and Infanta Doña Maria Isabella of Spain.

Also, google book and google scholar searches come up essentially blank when I search for versions of "King Don Francis I", "King Don Francesco", or "Don Francis I", etc. I don't believe the form "King Don Francesco/Francis" is used in scholarly English sources. It's rather like using "Prof Dr Herr Schmidt" instead of "Prof Schmidt", which is done in English regardless of German practice.

I see that Barman uses "D. Pedro Augusto" and "D. Augusto" but Mary Wilhelmine Williams uses "Pedro Augusto" and "Augusto Leopoldo" in her Dom Pedro: the Magnanimous, second Emperor of Brazil, and through a google search I see that these forms are used in Revista do Instituto Histórico e Geográfico Brasileiro. So, I'm still inclined to prefer the longer forms for the sake of clarity. Particularly as Augusto is only mentioned once, so it is not very onerous to change it. DrKiernan (talk) 11:25, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here goes the answers:
Augusto or Augusto Leopoldo: They were called, in their lifetime, respectively, "Pedro Augusto" and "Augusto". The reason to why he was called "Pedro Augusto" was to differentiate him from his younger cousin, Pedro, the Prince of Grand Pará (eldest son of Isabel). Not only that, every single source used in the articles related to Imperial Brazil which I wrote calls them exactly like that. From Barman to Carvalho (2007), Lyra (1977), to Besouchet, to Calmon, etc... However, this is not a matter of life and death for me. You may change Augusto to "Augusto Leopoldo". I made only one small correction to your edits: Pedro Augusto was called "Pedro Augusto" in one place and in another, "Pedro of Saxe Coburg Kohary", and readers would have no idea that both are the same.
Dom meaning: At first, I thought that simply having a wikilink to "Dom" would be enough, but from personal experience in here, at Wikipedia, I learned that it wouldn't. A good editor called Hchc2009 who helped me at at Empire of Brazil believed that Isabel, the Princess Imperial's first name was actually "Dona". Having the article itself explain that Dom is similar to Don and Lord does not harm it. That is done immediately after the title appears for the first time and its use has the sole purpose of clarifying it, that it's not the name of a person, but an actual title. Augustus, a featured article about the first emperor of Rome, has the following sentence in its lead: "In 27 BC the Senate awarded him the honorific Augustus ('the revered one')". There is a wikilink to Augustus (the title), but even so the article tells the reader its meaning anyway.
Don Francesco I: Why the Brazilian and Spanish royals can be called "Dom" or "Don" but the Sicilian ones can not? Pedro II is called Emperor Dom Pedro II but Francesco I of the Two Sicilies can not be themed "King Don Francesco I"? You're being a little too picky, don't you think so? The monarchy of the Two Sicilies was a direct offshoot of the Spanish monarchy and it retained the latter's traditions. Teresa Cristina was called "Donna Teresa Cristina" in her younger years and in Brazil, "Dona Teresa Cristina". You can see that in here [13] ("S.A.R. Don Francesco di Borbone, Principe delle Due Sicilie") and here [14] ("Re don Francesco II di Borbone"), for example.
Removal of the full name from the lead: I did not agre with this change of yours, if you allow me to be sincere. Frederick III, German Emperor and Pedro II of Brazil have both the full name in bold and a translation to English of it. And both articles are featured.
DrKiernan, I know that you wrote wonderful articles about the British royalty and that you successfully nominated them to featured status. Also, I know that you followed one standard that suited you the most in those articles (but it is not the one used in Imperial Brazil-related articles). And I'm certainly very happy to see that you took your time to review this article. However, simply pleasing you by the sake of having your "support" vote wouldn't be correct. I tried to appease you in many points you raised, but I can't do it in every single one. I hope you can understand it. Kind regards, --Lecen (talk) 12:32, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You ask "Pedro II is called Emperor Dom Pedro II but Francesco I of the Two Sicilies can not be themed "King Don Francesco I"?" That is my preference, yes, since "Emperor Dom Pedro II" is used in scholarly English sources, while "King Don Francesco I" is not. I think it's fine to use foreign-language terms when no English equivalent exists or when they are in use in English, but I'm concerned that translating straight from Portuguese introduces novel terms that can be better understood by native English speakers when translated into traditional English forms. Personally, I would not include honorifics but MOS:HONORIFIC does not cover Continental European nobility, and so it is largely a matter of personal preference.
Frederick only has 4 names; Teresa Cristina has 22. Frederick's names I can accept, but when the number of names goes past a certain point it, in my personal opinion, becomes cumbersome and distracting.
I'm sorry, but I doubt whether I will revisit this page or make a declaration because I do not feel confident enough as to whether the article meets the criteria or not. There are subtleties around translation of foreign sources that I'm uncomfortable with, and I do not believe I have sufficient knowledge of the subject area to determine whether the article meets the criteria. However, I would say that
Support: the article is another very strong one from an evidently knowledgable team. I am confident that my review has helped improve the article, and the nominators have responded to suggestions good-naturedly and reasonably. DrKiernan (talk) 17:40, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's sad, since your knowledge and opinion are taken in high regard. And you certainly helped a lot. Nonetheless, I'd like to tell you that I'm very grateful for all your help and interest here. Kind regards, --Lecen (talk) 19:15, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: That seems to be a good solution. I will try to implement it a bit later. Regarding "King Don Francesco I", I think that it is better to remove "Don" as Dr.Kiernan suggested. "Don" is a given name in English, and as this article doesn't go into much detail about him it is less confusing to just leave out the honorifics for non-Brazilian royalty. "Dom" and "Dona"/"Donna" are also commonly used as names/shortened names in English (Dom DeLuise, Dom Dallessandro, etc.), so a note is in order. Putting those explanations in an endnote would keep the explanations available without interrupting the flow of text. • Astynax talk 21:36, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - as usual, a great article. One quibble:
    • "Pedro II reveals in a letter written to the Countess of Barral in early 1881 that: "The [container] with the earrings which you mentioned, has been the cause for much recrimination on the part of someone [alguém] who thinks that I have been to blame for their disappearence."[57] Even though she was no longer as diffident, and even though the Emperor still treated her as formerly, she continued to express love for her husband.[57]" -- what is "alguém" a translation of? What does "formerly" mean here? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 22:18, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, ed. "Alguém" means "someone". It came from the original text, in Roderick J. Barman's book. It was not I who added it. The Emperor called his wife "someone" when writing to the Countess of Barral. "Formely" is the same as "before". Pedro II always treated his wife with respect, and even steem. But he never lover her as a woman, did not treat her with caress. In other words, he treated her as a good friend, not a wife. Teresa Cristina, on the other hand, always did whatever her husband wanted. She never said "I want to do this" or "I don't want to do this". She got used to live under his shadow, doing what he wanted, not what she wanted. In other words, she was a typical middle 19th century woman. However, even when time passed, when she started asserting more to her, the Emperor kept treating her as he ever did: a friend with whom he was married, but who had to do what he wanted. --Lecen (talk) 22:49, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Did you mention he always called her "someone"? (if you did, I missed it and I'm sorry!) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:28, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed that. Now it's certainly more clear. Thanks for taking notice of that! --Lecen (talk) 10:45, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Use English; use English sources and when you have done so,get back to us. This problem varies from the use of Neopolitans as the adjective of Naples (I fised this one) to extensive quotations of writing originally in Portuguese in our editors' translation. The most serious instance I saw of this is the selection of quotes from Azevedo; "exalted republicans" is not a reasonable translation of exaltados; only those with a smattering of Romance languages will understand this gallicism. English sources on the Court of Pedro II do exist; and their English versions should be followed lest the editors' command of idiom fail. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:58, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your imput, PMAnderson. The article is primarily built upon two sources:
  • Barman, Roderick J. (1999). Citizen Emperor: Pedro II and the Making of Brazil, 1825–1891. Stanford, California: Stanford University Press. ISBN 0804735107. (English)
  • Longo, James McMurtry (2008). Isabel Orleans-Bragança: The Brazilian Princess Who Freed the Slaves. Jefferson, North Carolina: McFarland & Company, Inc.. ISBN 978-0-7864-3201-1. (English)
Both are in English, not Portuguese. I believe that around 85% of the text was written using English-written sources. The incorrect translation of "exaltado" was a small mistake. I changed it for "extremist". Regards, --Lecen (talk) 23:08, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But it could also be extreme, passionate, or doctrinaire - if it has the same range as in French; extreme might be best. But we should not be making these decisions. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:51, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with your position. It will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to continue writing high-quality articles on foreign topics without using foreign sources, and I believe there is precedent for using many foreign-language sources in FAs. There is always variability in possible phrasing of translations; people have complained about such things as far back as the original translation of the Bible. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:28, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:NOENG, which I am attempting to follow. When English sources of comparable value exist, they should be cited; when published English translations of foreign quotes exist, they should be used. I believe, given the prominence of this subject (and her husband), the necessary English sources and translations do exist; they must merely be found. Whether it is enough that most of the article is so sourced is up to the closer. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:04, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read what I wrote before? Again:
"The article is primarily built upon two sources:"
  • Barman, Roderick J. (1999). Citizen Emperor: Pedro II and the Making of Brazil, 1825–1891. Stanford, California: Stanford University Press. ISBN 0804735107. (English)
  • Longo, James McMurtry (2008). Isabel Orleans-Bragança: The Brazilian Princess Who Freed the Slaves. Jefferson, North Carolina: McFarland & Company, Inc.. ISBN 978-0-7864-3201-1. (English)
"Both are in English, not Portuguese. I believe that around 85% of the text was written using English-written sources." --Lecen (talk) 15:21, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I am taking your word for it that most of the article is so sourced; that's why I said most. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:23, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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