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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sonic and the Secret Rings/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 16:58, 29 June 2010 [1].

Sonic and the Secret Rings edit

Sonic and the Secret Rings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Toolbox
Nominator(s): Tezero (talk) 14:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because after a successful GAN, VG peer review, copyedit helpfully provided by Zeality, and final quick run-through (that wasn't on purpose) by me, I believe it is up to standards with the other VG FA's. Tezero (talk) 14:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - There's no dabs in the article but there is a dead link. GamerPro64 (talk) 14:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Brianboulton edit

Sources issues

  • Ref 8: Suggest PALGN be spelt out as "PAl Gaming Network (PALGN)"
    • I'm not sure. "IGN" isn't spelled out. Tezero (talk) 03:00, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Fair point. I believe that PALGN and IGN are basically logos which have become accepted as identifying names. Strictly, IGN should be IGN Entertainment and PALGN should be PAL Gaming Network, but I'll leave this to you. Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 24: Author and date information not in accordance with the source
  • Refs 41, 42 and 43 seem uninformative (cf nos 10 & 35)
    • Those refs cover simple charting sections near the front of each Nintendo Power issue. No authors are listed. Tezero (talk) 02:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • No page numbers? No where-to-look indicators? Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • The page numbers are already listed: 16, 16, and 14. Tezero (talk) 01:00, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • So they are. With no "p." indicator they look like parts of the dates.
            • Gotcha. Fixed for all magazine refs. Tezero (talk) 17:53, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is http://www.thatvideogameblog.com/2008/03/21/the-3rd-party-wii-games-that-sold-a-million/ a reliable source?
    • Never looked that much into it. It seemed professional enough, I thought. I'm hesitant to remove it because it provides the most significant sales information in the article. Tezero (talk) 02:53, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's a blog; such sites often hold correct information, but cannot be considered reliable when we lack information about editorial control, etc. I see that the only fact cited here is the 1.2 million sales figure. I would have thought that this information could be verified elsewhere. Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I know it has "Blog" in the title, but it is used in such articles as Resident Evil 4 and the best-seller list. The site requires official approval before applicants are accepted, and any posts have to be based on press releases. Tezero (talk) 01:06, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • OK, I'll leave this for other editors to decide. If no objections raised, that's fine. Brianboulton (talk) 13:52, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise sources seem OK. Brianboulton (talk) 19:09, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Ost316 edit

Prose
  • Some of the text seems disjoint or incomplete. Here are some areas that I noted and potential ways to clarify:
  • Sonic completes the story in the "Adventure" mode; the player can also select "Party" and "Special Book" modes seems as if it could use a bit more transition for the previous paragraph. Perhaps along the lines of, The game's story is completed in "Adventure" mode, with "Party" and "Special Book" modes also available to the player, unless players can only select those modes after completing story mode (in which case that should probably be mentioned, too). Following this sentence, Party is not in quotes but Storybook is.
    • Rephrased to "The story occupies the 'Adventure' mode" to avoid passive voice. Tezero (talk) 01:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe change Sonic recognizes them as old acquaintances; they do not recognize him, and Shahra insists that Sonic's perception is mistaken to Though Sonic recognizes them as old acquaintances, they...
  • The explanation of Fire Souls should probably be separated from the rest of the sentence with a colon or emdash instead of a comma.
  • Add what it means to hold the Wiimote like a traditional controller: He is controlled exclusively with the Wii Remote, which is intended to be held pointing sideways like a traditional gamepad.
    • I did "horizontally" because the way gamepads are held is how they are supposed to be held; it isn't considered sideways. Tezero (talk) 01:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I considered suggesting horizontally, but I've never played the game so I'm having trouble picturing which orientation it would be held by the player within the horizontal plane (is the d-pad to the left or to the front). Maybe it doesn't matter, but I think of the 'mote as being used as traditional gamepad when it is used similar to a NES controller. —Ost (talk) 16:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're right; that's how it is with this game. Thus, I conclude that I explained it well enough. Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just because I guessed correctly does not mean that it is explained well enough; I should not have to guess which way the d-pad goes. Do sources or the instruction manual refer to it this way with no clarification to orientation within the horizontal plane? As Jinnai and Hellknowz point out below about wikilinking gamer terms, readers unfamiliar with a traditional gamepad or the wiimote may not understand what this orientation means. —Ost (talk) 21:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sonic appears to defeat Erazor, but he boasts that he is immortal; Sonic reveals that he possesses Erazor's lamp. to During the battle, Sonic appears to defeat Erazor, who subsequently boasts that he is immortal. Sonic then reveals that he possesses Erazor's lamp. A semicolon doesn't seem to link the thoughts well enough.
  • Secret Rings is three-dimensional and uses the PhysX engine. seems out of place.
    • Slightly moved and rephrased. Tezero (talk) 22:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

—Ost (talk) 20:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for considering and acting on my suggestions. The article seems well-written and well-sourced. —Ost (talk) 16:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by H3llkn0wz edit

Resolved comments from —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:22, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a comment.
  • "Morio Kishimoto (Lead Game Design)" - spell out "designer" to match.
    • Oh. Forgot to say this, but done. Tezero (talk) 20:13, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Producer/Director", "Lead Game Design", "Art & Field Art Director" - is there a particular reason they are capitalized? I would say work titles aren't proper nouns. "sound director" isn't capitalized.
  • "3D" is linked in gameplay and not in lead. I would avoid linking such short word "3D" before another link, it can easily be misinterpreted as a 3D platform link.
    • Linked the lead one as well. Both appear as "three-dimensional" rather than "3D". Tezero (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "de facto sidekick" - is redundant "de facto" really needed here? As fancy as it sounds, "throughout the game" already establishes that the side-kick is constantly there. As much as I love placing Latin phrases here and there, this is of little benefit to the reader.
  • "the entirety of the book Arabian Nights" - "the entire Arabian Nights book", simpler
  • "the two form" - what's a "two form"? I suspect clarification is needed unless I'm just not familiar with the expression.
    • It's not an expression. The Storybook series is formed by the two games: Secret Rings and Black Knight. Tezero (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oh, lol, I read it as a noun. Nevermind. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and Sonic dies if he touched an enemy without any rings" - does this instalment not feature death by spikes and such? Also "if he touches".
    • Done. My bad; the "D" is right next to the "S". Tezero (talk) 20:13, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The story occupies the "Adventure" mode" - occupies is a very strange word for this. Can is simply be ".. story is played in the adv..."?
  • "These bonus consist of" - "These bonuses are" - simpler, also bonuses should be pluralized.
  • "Sonic earns experience points after successful missions, which advance him levels as in role-playing video games." - "which" is ambiguous - it is experience points and not missions that advance him. So "Sonic earns experience points after successful missions and advances in levels as in role-playing video games."
    • I removed the RPG part altogether per a later comment. Tezero (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The other comment on ambiguity of "which" still stands. If you really want to stress it out, then perhaps "Successful missions earn Sonic experience points, which advance him in levels." —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sonic can be wikilinked Sonic the Hedgehog (character) as first mention in non-lead. Same for Shahra who may have an article one day as unlikely it may be. Same for "Genie of the Lamp" at The Genie.
    • Sonic is already linked in the second sentence of gameplay, his first non-lead mention. Also, linking Shahra would create a redlink, which just don't look good and should be avoided. The Genie→done, though. Tezero (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oh, yeah, Sonic was linked in gameplay, my bad. Who exactly is The Genie - Shahra or "Genie of the Lamp from the story of Aladdin and the Magic Lamp"? The prose definitely suggests the latter one, but you linked the former. Shahra is not a redlink and even if it was there is nothing against redlinks even in FA. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • You're right; my bad; done. Concerning Shahra, though, FACs are specifically not supposed to link to disambiguation pages, as it looks like an error. Tezero (talk) 18:38, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • That's not a disambiguation page, that's a sub-section of a list of characters. Noone has yet added Shahra, but I can create a header for her if you are that concerned with a half-broken link.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 18:50, 25 June 2010 (UTC) It's for characters appearing multiple times, so probably not worth it. I doubt she'll be featured. Withdrawing.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The game uses a system of experience points and levels, as well as special moves." Would explicitly saying that this is different from other series games be appropriate as that was probably your intention.
  • "on-rails style of movement" is completely unexplained for unfamiliar reader, especially without any wikilinks.
    • Linked to a section of Shoot 'em up which seems to explain the concept, although there isn't any real main article for on-rails movement. Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by collecting pearls scattered throughout" - pearl is not obscure and not enough context important to be wikilinked. "turn-based", for example, is more suited for wikilinking.
  • "the Erazor Djinn" - Erazor Djinn is proper noun, so "the" shouldn't be used.
  • "While sleeping soundly" - why soundly? the reference implies he woke up from the first Shara's text.
  • "characteristically, he agrees" - characteristically is also OR and not directly from game dialogue.
  • "sacrificed" - not sure if linking this to Human sacrifice is useful - they are anthropomorphic creatures and even so, sacrifce isn't such an obscure term or something that one would really want to research after this.
  • "similarly real world is not referring to THE real world, rather Sonic's real world, so I think that link is misleading.
  • "Erazor's lamp" - oil lamp was already linked in "characters" and it's a really pointless link.
  • "Sonic then disposes of the lamp in the "Evil Foundry" level" - disposes how? why is the level name significant to mention but not explain further?
  • "Sonic runs through the book until he finds a way home." - finds a way home how?
    • Weirdly, it doesn't say how. Shahra is narrating that Sonic is running around until he finds his way home. Tezero (talk) 18:47, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bettenhausen noted that "[t]he controls feel" - if the [t] represent uncapitalized "T", then I'm not sure it's needed, it doesn't really improve the meaning and only confuses.
  • "Players brake with the 1 button and jump with the 2 button." This comes out of nowhere with assumption reader is familiar with both Sonic's possible action and gamepad's buttons.
    • Done. Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • It still assumes player even knows what Sonic can do. The section does not explain the "obvious" basics - jumping, braking. Is there dash? Are there power-ups? Somewhere later it mentioned constant running but also reversing? I think it needs more "never seen a Sonic" game material for the FA to stand on its own.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:28, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Something like "Sonic constantly runs forward, with player directing his sideways movement with Wii. Player can brake with the 1 button and jump with the 2 button of blah blah"? I've never played this so I'm guessing. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 20:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Slightly reworded. But it already says that "Tilting the Wii Remote forward, backward, left, or right stilts his movement in the corresponding direction." That explains sideways movement, as well as speeding up and slowing down. Power-ups and dashing are covered later in the "skills" paragraph, and jumping and braking are covered when it explains the controls. It's unlikely that players wouldn't know where jumping is coming from, because the article already states that it's a platform game. Tezero (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "homing attack" - I suspect more clarification on this is needed as as well.
    • Done... I think. Can you tell what it means? Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • "a move which propels him forward in mid-air" - only mid-air? So "him forward from mid-air" would be better. "locking onto" as in automatic target-lock? Does it automatically alter Sonic's direction to hit multiple targets? Or does is only target one distant enemy? If so, "locking onto" is probably unnecessary.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:28, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Slightly reworded... it is an automatic target lock. It's like, his direction is dependent on the enemies he locks onto, but generally they're all in about the same direction. Tezero (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I only skimmed throught Story, Development, Reception sections for now. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 14:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • "As in other Sonic games" -> Perhaps "Like in other Sonic games"?
  • "As in other Sonic games, Sonic collects rings" - "Sonic" twice in a row reads bad, perhaps: "Like in other franchise's games, Sonic collects rings".
    • Changed to "Like in other games in the series". Tezero (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sonic collects rings as a form of health" - does the manual actually say "form of health" or is this OR?
    • Changed to "scattered throughout levels"... it is basically a form of health, but you're right, the manual doesn't say that. Tezero (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Different from previous titles" -> "unlike previous titles" - "different" reads strange if not incorrect at the start of sentence.
    • "Differently" would be okay, but I just changed it to "unlike". Tezero (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "at the last designated checkpoint" - "designated" how? Can "visited" be used instead (if that is how it works)? Otherwise, the word can be skipped.
  • "Sonic has 104 special moves called "skills" unlocked over the course of the game, usually upon reaching certain levels." - what are the other ways to unlock skills? Were they not mentioned because they are trivial?
    • Changed to "unlocked upon leveling up or reaching certain points in the story"... I'm pretty sure that's the only other way. Tezero (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The player can distribute these skills to four "Skill Rings" - I assume it's only 4 skills per Ring, but this may need a slight rewording to explicitly state that.
    • No; it's at least, like, 10 skills per ring, but there are four skill rings. Tezero (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Skills aid Sonic in various ways, such as increasing speed, acceleration, braking, initial speed upon landing, and offensive or defensive power, as well as providing him with special attacks." -> "Skills can provide Sonic with improved movement, offensive, and defensive capabilities, as well as special attacks." - shortened, less specifics, some descriptive adjectives can be added (e.g., "enhanced").
  • "minigames that employ the Wii Remote's motion sensing technology" - is that an important distinction?
    • Changed to "motion control-based minigames" so it reads better. But yes, the minigames focus on the motion control gimmick rather than content. I have to agree with the critics on this one. Tezero (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""Fire Souls": small fiery objects" -> ""Fire Souls" — small fiery objects" - Mdash should be generally used instead of colon unless listing a number of items.
  • "Skills are generally used by depleting the "Soul Gauge", shown on the right side of the screen and slowly filled by collecting pearls scattered throughout the levels." -> "Skills are used by depleting the "Soul Gauge", which is slowly filled by collecting pearls scattered throughout the levels." - "generally" - are there other methods to use skills? Since the location of Soul Gauge is shown in the image with description, I don't think it is worth mentioning. Its location carries little significance to how it's used, but the sentence becomes cluttered.
    • Removed location, but kept "generally". Not all of them deplete the Soul Gauge; for example, one of them gives him a rocket start upon commencing a level, and one simply increases his speed during the entirety of the time it is on. Tezero (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with "Party" and "Special Book" modes also available to the player" - not a good sentence - "available" is an adjective, not a verb.
  • "Sonic and the Secret Rings features three game modes — "Adventure", "Party", and "Special Book". The game's story is played in the Adventure mode. The Party mode features..." - this immediately lists the three modes, and then proceeds to explain them. I could not think of a better way (considering Ost316's suggestion). The current version ties the explanation of Adventure mode with introduction to other modes, and no matter how rephrased, it still feels poorly fragmented.
    • It's like that now. But I didn't link game mode because of Jinnai's thing about overlinking. Tezero (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • As I responded to that comment, I believe such terms should be linked (even if that makes the text blueish). Our target is general audience and not gamers. This is a good gaming topic to look further at.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 23:55, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "exclusively" - a bit redundant since Wii or other consoles don't come with any other stuff by default.
    • Well, some games use the Nunchuk, classic controller, GameCube controller, or Wii Motion Plus. Tezero (talk) 22:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • No problem, then, it is important to distinguish.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 00:01, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which is intended to be held" - also redundant, what else could a gamepad be intended for?
    • Like a traditional gamepad. The Wii Remote isn't held this way for most games. Tezero (talk) 22:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • "He is controlled with the Wii Remote held horizontally like a traditional gamepad." I only suggested "which is intended to be held"->"held", being held like traditional controller is definitely important.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 00:01, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done. But theoretically, you don't have to hold it that way. Tezero (talk) 18:44, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, theoretically, you can place the monitor upside down :P—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:44, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That would be my take on this part. I also suggest placing a line break afterwards, since next sentences starts off about rings and bonuses and such.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 23:10, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • semicolon - although it clearly separated the thoughts, it isn't easy on reading.

*I assume homing attack is a major Wii thing for this game? If so, it should be mentioned, though after fully explaining its meaning, it does seem overly descriptive, so:

**"along his path" - grammar

Altered: "Sonic the Hedgehog, the series' main character, is the game's only player character. He is controlled exclusively with the Wii Remote, which is held horizontally like a traditional gamepad.[2] Sonic is constantly running and players adjust his forward movement by tilting the controller. Players can jump and brake by pressing the respective controller buttons. Thrusting the Wii Remote forwards performs a special attack from mid-air targeting and damaging enemies along his path."
  • That seems contradicting. It says that he's always running forward, but that the player can change his direction. It's more like, when you tilt the controller, his movement is more in that direction but still overall forward. The way it is now implies that if you tilt it forward, he goes faster, and if you tilt it backward, he goes slower or even backwards, as well as the stuff about moving to either side. Also, "corresponding controller buttons" doesn't make sense; corresponding to what? Tezero (talk) 01:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really nice reception, btw. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:22, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank for doing all the "other stuff"! —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 20:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I know I am nitpicky and the collapsed box now spans several "scroll-downs". But I also respect the work you do to correct these after having already reread and rechecked the article time and time again! So don't get discouraged on this. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 00:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I appreciate your being thorough and willing to return more than once with more comments. Hopefully the article meets your standard for FAs. Tezero (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As per Jinnai, gameplay may indeed be shifting into crufty due to non-gamer explanations. I realize I contributed to this. To answer the issue, I suggest shortening the material. I'll propose a copyedit (with detailed comments) of the first part for now:
  • So "Sonic constantly runs..." or "Sonic is constantly running..." without "forward".
    • Changed to "runs along a predesignated path". Tezero (talk) 22:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • That brings up more issues - pre-designated by whom? player/level design? pre-designated how? by some kind of markers, by road width/borders?—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:44, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • By level design. It's just like any on-rails game: for example, in Star Fox, there's a predesignated path the Arwing follows. Except in this game, you get more control. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Assuming above is not accepted) "He runs along a predesignated path by default" - this is a matter of preference, but "by default" sounds like a very mechanical language. Also it is partially redundant to "predesignated".
  • "Tilting the Wii Remote forward, backward, left, or right tilts his movement in the corresponding direction." -> "...players adjust his forward movement by tilting the controller". This should be placed before jump/halt mechanics, as it is more important and directly relevant to his constant running. The "left/right" sentence is excessively wordy; I believe "tilt" already explicitly explains all that. I think saying - "Sonic constantly runs" -and- "players turn with Wii" fits nicely into a single sentence.
  • (skipped some text) Also, "corresponding controller buttons" doesn't make sense; corresponding to what? Tezero (talk) 01:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Players can jump and brake by pressing the respective controller buttons" - correct word and spell out. I used "corresponding" because it stuck in my mind from the tilt sentence. Although it still implies the same thing — there is a button to jump and a button to brake. You could add "respective controller buttons for these actions" if you really want to stress out that these buttons correspond to these actions, although I cannot see how that is not already obvious. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 12:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's now "He runs along a predesignated path; players jump and brake using corresponding face buttons"; I think that solves it. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He"->"Sonic" - just a little variety from "he".
    • Where? It says both "he" and "Sonic" many times. Tezero (talk) 22:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • "He is controlled... He runs forward..." -- I underlined in altered version. These comments were only about the above altered paragraph. This is nitpicking, so don't pay attention if you think this doesn't improve anything. It is my personal preference to repeat who "he/she/it" is so the reader can follow easily between many other facts.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 00:01, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Switched for a couple instances. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Next big thing is jump and brake(halt?) (and I would list these in that order, as jumping is far more Sonic style than braking). Button position on gamepad is how-to, so I would exclude it. I agree that saying this is done via buttons (as opposed to Wii motion) is important to distinguish. Also, does Sonic actually halt and stop or only slows down?
    • Trimmed. He does, in fact, screech to a halt. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "homing attack, a move" -> "special move" - reduce redundancy and removes the need to explain "homing" part unless it is really important? Are the words "homing attack" repeatedly mentioned in the manual?
    • Yes. Also, that's how the move is officially known throughout the series, as demonstrated here (although I couldn't cite that). Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which propels him forward" - perhaps unnecessary? I think this is one of the least useful parts.
    • Reworded the clause after "homing attack" to "a mid-air move that targets and damages enemies in Sonic's path". Is that okay? Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "damaging any enemies in his path" - "any" is redundant; if it was not all enemies, it would be mentioned
  • "Like in other games in the series, Sonic collects..." - newline preferred, this is a long paragraph and rings/live/checkpoints/levels can be seperated to a new para.

Comments by Jinnai edit

  • Comments
  • After further review I would have to Oppose it at this time. There are numerous problems with this article that I could easily spot.
Resolved issues
    • Per Tezero I believehttp://www.thatvideogameblog.com/2008/03/21/the-3rd-party-wii-games-that-sold-a-million/ is not reliable. The page you use is as justification is first off not a very good page to use as an example and second other stuff exists is not a valid reason. You need to come up with a good reason why its used in this article since its clearly a disputed source.
      • I can remove it if necessary. I'd really rather not, though, because other than that the only sales in the article are 83,000 in the first month. I've been looking for better sales figures for a long time but come up with nothing. Tezero (talk) 18:38, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I can sympathize with the problem as I have had issues with finding RSes for stuff, but that doesn't mean I can pull whatever sources I want to make an article. If you feel you want to keep it I suggest going to WP:RS/N and possibly WP:VG explaining the situation and see if anyone there can help determine if this is a valid SPS.陣内Jinnai 18:45, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm afraid I have to agree with Tezero here, after looking at [2], which suggests a lack of accuracy and fact-checking, especially if they say anyone can come and chip in. –MuZemike 19:08, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's not agreeing with me. Tezero (talk) 18:35, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • ThatVideoGameBlog is not a reliable source. There are only a handful of organizations that provide accurate chart data (NPD, ChartTrack etc), and they've not cited any of them. The site relies on unpaid volunteers. - hahnchen 08:45, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Quote in the lead needs to be sourced as all quotes do.
      • I couldn't find which source said that, so I just replaced it with a different quote and cited that. Tezero (talk) 18:38, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Sonic earns experience points after successful missions, which advance him levels as in role-playing video games." - bolded section sounds like original research.陣内Jinnai 16:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I could have sworn that was from a source. I guess not, now that I check again. Removed. Tezero (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Went through the article some more and found some other stuff.

  • You have an excess and arbitray number of links in gameplay section. I realize this is a video game, but you link to a lot off commonly used terms like boss while ignoring stuff like unlockable content. I basically think this section needs to be weened of most of the links except where they are core elements of the game. Boss fights don't appear to be that important as say Shadow of the Colossus. That one doesn't even link to it and you'll notice it has only a few links in gameplay. This also pertains to other sections such as linking to oil lamp which is not really relevant as far as I can tell anymore than the word people which isn't wikilinked.

    The reason I say to renove links is because of what many links posted near each other does.

    • The oil lamp is an iconic object in the original Arabian Nights. Besides, how often do you see someone walking around with an oil lamp? It's not a common topic. About the gameplay elements that are linked... about every game article does this, and for good reason: frankly, non-gamers do not always know what a boss battle or checkpoint is, for example. Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oil lamp is marginally questionable as it is key symbol of djinns and 1000nights. Many gaming terms, however, should be linked or explained. The audience is an intelligent general population reader and not necessarily a gamer, which video game articles often forget.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 22:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see a Famitsu rating. I would expect to see one for a Sonic game.
    • Such a review is mentioned neither in Game Rankings nor Metacritic. Why is it any more likely that Famitsu would review a Sonic game than any other game? Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Because its akin to reviewing a Mario game or Final Fantasy game. It is a popular franchise. While GameRankings and such are good at picking up Famitsu's scores, they aren't perfect and I've known a few to slip through the cracks.
      • search results (using a custom RS search engine) for ソニックと秘密のリング ファミ通 or "sonic and the sacred rings" famitsu. I didn't check the sources, but there is quite possibly some info there.陣内Jinnai 23:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • A lot of previews/promotional coverage from Famitsu came up, as well as third-party summary stuff, but no actual reviews. Tezero (talk) 15:35, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • improper use of {{cquote}}. That template is used for Pull-quotes. Furthermore as this doesn't appear to be a long quote or paragraph, it should be incorporated into the paragraph and not use a blockquote.
    • It is a pull-quote now. If I just worked it into the prose, the paragraph would be too long. Tezero (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The plot section could use some prose cleanup such as:
  • Their enemy is Erazor Djinn, a djinn who aspires to erase the entirety of the Arabian Nights book. -using the word djinn to describe a djinn??
    • Changed to "genie"... is that better? Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • While sleeping after reading the Arabian Nights, Sonic is awoken by Shahra. -rewrite
  • Erazor opportunistically tells Sonic that he will remove the arrow if Sonic gathers the World Rings for him. If Sonic does not do so before the flame goes out, his "life is forfeit". - looks as though this should be one sentance
    • How should I combine? Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well specifically that second sentance looks like a fragment.陣内Jinnai 23:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • o keep them out of Erazor's hands, Sonic wishes for Shahra to do what she truly thinks is right, and she collapses to the ground. - you collapse "on" or "ontop of" the ground, not "to" the ground.
  • These are just some examples that i could easily spot so don't take this as meaning that's all that's wrong with the prose.
    • Well, I did already get a copyeditor who seems to be pretty well-respected. He said the prose was good and that copyediting it wasn't difficult. Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I know how you feel. I went through 4-5 such copyeditors in addition to many of my own to get School Rumble where it is.陣内Jinnai 23:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gameplay section seems to get too WP:GAMEGUIDEy with giving explicit instructions on how to do various moves.
    • I did this because of other reviewers' comments about accessibility. What possible balance is there? Tezero (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The part taken from Scott Mariott is fine. Its the part taken from the instruction manual that is too detailed. See a good example for how MissingNo was handled (characteristics section). Basically don't describe in detail how to do moves or actions.陣内Jinnai 23:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't go and quote modes and other text like skills per MOS:TEXT. Outside of the quotes I don't see anything that needs special quotations around it to emphasize it.
  • Can someone check the stability and credibility of Sonic News Netwrok and make certain it doesn't violate WP:ELNEVER doesn't have problems with the open wiki portion of WP:ELNO.

陣内Jinnai 21:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • File:Sonic wii.jpg - where was this taken? It may, and I'm not saying it does, have copyright issues if it was taken someplace private where not many pictures were taken or in a restircted area. Since it is inside a building and the user did not state where it was taken I'm raising this just to be certain.陣内Jinnai 03:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It looks like an exhibition, E3-like thing. The image description doesn't say. Tezero (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I saw you restored this image and I have to agree with Jinnai that there are probably issues with the image. Even if the location didn't have restrictions on pictures, the costume is a likely derivative work. Moreover, I don't get what this image adds over a traditional screenshot nor why a picture of a tv screen showing the game would be have less restrictive copyright than a normal screenshot. If the image is ok and is going to be used, it should be explained why it is being used in the caption; what I'm assuming is the Soul Gauge is the only element I can make out. —Ost (talk) 21:17, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Technically, it's a free image and is used on several other Wikipedias with no fair use rationale. I guess you're right, though. The source file doesn't say what exhibition it's from. Tezero (talk) 19:13, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Giants2008 edit

  • Quick comment – Several references have the title in all capital letters, which is discouraged. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 18:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • What? There isn't a single one that does that, and there are only a few that have anything in all capital letters. Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Giants is referring to references 27, 38, and 39, which have titles with all caps. You should change the titles per WP:ALLCAPS to be in a "start case" format (the WP:ALLCAPS article should clarify things up). -- Nomader (Talk) 00:30, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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