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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Smoking on My Ex Pack/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 19 July 2023 [1].

Smoking on My Ex Pack edit

Nominator(s): ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 06:03, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Within the past five months, you might have heard of a musician called SZA. Her most successful single yet, "Kill Bill", has been topping charts, and she had the blessing of one of the actors from the namesake films to make a cameo in its music video. Last December, she released an album that spent 10 weeks atop the US albums chart, and now she's selling out arenas on tour. Or you're been around for a while.

Here is one of the songs from the aforementioned album. It's a rap song in an album full of varying genres --- from country and acoustic ballads to trap and rock. One of my personal goals has been, for a long while, to bring more articles related to music by Black women to the highest possible quality, which makes me especially elated to nominate this for FAC. With that said, let the comments commence. ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 06:03, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisTheDude @MRN2electricboogaloo @Ippantekina - it's been a week since y'all last left comments; i would appreciate an update :-) ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 01:02, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • File:SZA CTRL Tour Toronto 2017 8 (cropped).jpg has a clear purpose in the article and appropriate WP:ALT text. I would recommend putting the specific year the photo was taken in the caption rather than having the year range for the tour, and I would put the location as well. See how "I'm Goin' Down" does this for the "Background and recording" section for what I mean. I think this kind of clarity is useful for readers to more easily get a complete context of the image. The author and source links work for me.
  • Would it be beneficial to include an audio sample in this article?
  • This is outside of the scope of an image review, but I am uncertain about the placement of the "Release" section. I think it would be better before the "Critical reception" section.

I hope this image review is helpful. I have a few comments about the image caption (mostly nitpick to be honest), and once they are addressed, this should pass my review. I have also asked about the possibility of an audio sample and one prose question outside of the scope of an image review. Unfortunately, I will not be able to do a prose review so apologies for that.

The above blurb is very engaging, and I can understand and appreciate bringing more attention to music by Black women. I have hopefully done some of that myself with my FAs. I have actually never heard a SZA song before, but I am so completely and utterly disconnected from the now lol. Best of luck with your FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 23:51, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Aoba47: thank you for reviewing another of my work! Grind keeps on going. Re. the use of a sample, I don't really see any merit to one --- rapping is a fairly straightforward concept to grasp (fast delivery of lyrics, cunning wordplay), drum beats sound what you expect them to, and it is unnecessary to get a sample of the sample IMO. ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 08:13, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the responses above. Your explanation makes sense to me on why an audio sample is not used in the article. This FAC passes my image review. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 14:49, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a note, and feel free to ignore this, but an audio sample may be helpful in identifying the chipmunk soul production style, which I could see readers not fully understanding. To be clear, I do understand your rationale for not including an audio sample, and it does fit in with the site's overall preference to avoid non-free media usage when possible. Just thought it may be helpful to point this part out. Apologies if this comes across as rude or excessive because again, it is likely a matter of preference. Aoba47 (talk) 15:17, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from Chris edit

  • Chipmunk soul (used in both the lead and the body) redirects to hip hop music, where the term isn't even mentioned, so there is very little value in the link
  • "Before SOS, SZA had been known as an R&B artist who makes" => "Before SOS, SZA had been known as an R&B artist who made" (as we are talking about the past)
  • Image caption: "SZA performing in Ctrl the Tour (2017–2018)" - an artist doesn't perform "in" a tour. I would say "during" would be the right word here.
  • "Versace was inspired by the boom bap music he had heard from his childhood, many of which reminded him of songs that would play on the car radio during drives with his father" - the music he heard in his childhood reminded him of music he heard in his childhood? Something seems a bit off here......
  • "According to her, many songs in the album" => "According to her, many songs on the album"
  • "to dispel a narrative that she only makes "sad girl music"" => "to dispel a narrative that she only made "sad girl music""
  • "In the song's verse, SZA communicates her desirability to other men" => "In the song's verse, SZA communicates her desirability to men"
  • "because her lesser side loves "all the cap"" - is there a way to elaborate as to what "all the cap" means? It means literally nothing to me, a middle-aged white man......
  • "Certain music journalists wrote it" => "Certain music journalists wrote that it". Also, why "certain journalists"? That implies (to me at least) that there's something significant about the specific journos in question, but then you don't elaborate. Maybe simplify to just "Some music journalists".....?
  • "Fondren recommended its readers to play it on repeat" => "Fondren recommended that readers play it on repeat"
  • "SZA revealed the album's release date was scheduled for sometime next month" => "SZA revealed that the album's release date was scheduled for sometime during the following month"
  • "Three examples of such music journalists include" - you can't really say "N examples include" and then list all N, because the word "include" indicates that it's not an exhaustive list. Maybe simply lose the word "three".
  • Notes 7 and 8 don't need full stops as they aren't complete sentences
  • Think that's it :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:41, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • An IP has addressed most of the above. At a glanc, the wikilink to "chipmunk soul" has been removed, which now just leaves it as a descriptor in this article with no explanation as to what this (IMO) obscure term actually means (I certainly have no idea). Also, the "all the cap" query hasn't been addressed...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:08, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • @ChrisTheDude: thank you for the comments! Chipmunk soul is any record that takes a sample of a song (usually a soul song as the name suggests), speeds and pitches it up, and loops it to create a beat. "fusing hard-hitting drum beats..." supplements the "chipmunk soul production style" part of the sentence, so anyone can infer what the term means. Re. "all the cap", cap here is AAVE for roasting or making fun of someone, although interestingly the more recent, more popular definition of the AAVE term is to lie (e.g. no cap) - which is funny because fans like to joke about SZA being a chronic liar :) ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
        📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?"         07:23, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Further comments
  • "Before SOS, SZA had been known as an R&B artist who makes "sad girl" music" should be "Before SOS, SZA had been known as an R&B artist who made "sad girl" music" as I set out above.
  • "a narrative she wanted to dispel because she viewed them...." - doesn't work gramatically as "narrative" is not plural
  • "Built around a chipmunk soul production,[22] it incorporates a looped, sped-up sample of "Open Up Your Eyes" (1981) by Webster Lewis" - I don't think this makes clear that the second part is what "chipmunk soul" is. It could be interpreted as saying that it is chipmunk soul (unexplained) and also features the sample. I would suggest changing it to "Built around a chipmunk soul production,[22] a style which typically incorporates a looped, sped-up sample, the track features such a sample of "Open Up Your Eyes" (1981) by Webster Lewis"
  • Suggest linking "being pissed" to this, as in my country (and possibly other parts of the world) "being pissed" means something totally different
  • "The lyrics contain a comparison between SZA's former romantic partners and a character from The Simpsons named Sideshow Bob, a clown and a criminal" - this could be interpreted as meaning she is comparing her past partners with three different people. Maybe "The lyrics contain a comparison between SZA's former romantic partners and Sideshow Bob, a criminal character from The Simpsons" (not sure that he was once a clown is especially relevant) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:12, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude all done. thanks for these follow-ups :) ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 11:50, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't linked "being pissed" to wiktionary, not sure if that was an oversight or if you disagree with the suggestion.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:52, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yeah, that. I disagree with the suggestion; the article is written in American English, so I don't see the need for the change ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 01:09, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, I just thought it might be helpful to add a link for people in countries where "being pissed" means something totally different, without actually altering the wording of the article itself in any way, but I'm not going to get hung up on it. Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:17, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by MRN2electricboogaloo edit

  • “it is a rap and boom bap song with a chipmunk soul production style” -> “it is a rap song with a boom bap and chipmunk soul production style” unless there’s something setting boom bap apart as more than a production style that I’m unaware of
    • Boom bap is a genre that critics have used to classify Ex Pack, so in this case it's more than just a "production style" or an "influence". I've clarified the prose to more clearly distinguish boom bap from chipmunk soul
  • ”As such, she wanted to experiment with "aggressive" hip hop music for SOS—"Smoking on My Ex Pack" was conceived out of that desire.” The portion of this sentence after the em-dash feels awkward, maybe replace it with “, which led to “Smoking on My Ex Pack” being conceived” or something along those lines.
    • Tweaked
  • The lyric stated in the lede to be about an ex is actually about an undefined “your favorite rapper”, as stated later in the article. Stopping the sentence at “insults her ex-lovers in various ways” would probably be sufficient.
    • Actually, no. "your favorite rapper" is heavily implied, both by the song and by the sources that analyse it, to be part of the ex-lovers that are being insulted. Take the NPR source used --- "the singer-songwriter channels lethal bars into a perfect anti-ex anthem ... in 90 seconds, she flexes effortlessly on the dudes falling over themselves in her DMs — she blocked your favorite rapper (she heard "the d*** was wack") and she won't text anyone's favorite athlete back either (no exceptions)."
  • ”Critics in contemporary reviews felt otherwise” this doesn’t seem encyclopedic to me
    • I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you are talking about. How is "felt otherwise" unencyclopedic?
  • ”It was three years after the two first met up for the album's recording sessions.” I’d merge this into the previous sentence as “, three years after the two first met up for the album's recording sessions.”
    • Not done. Both are okay, but i prefer this one because the sentences are relatively short and thus more pleasing to read
  • ”She deliberately ignores many athletes who try to flirt in her messages and insist she text them back; because her lesser side loves "all the cap", SZA refuses to make exceptions for any of the men she does not acknowledge.” Sentence needs to make note of the fact that this is what she’s rapping in the song, like the preceding and succeeding sentences
    • I have found what I hope to be a good workaround that makes that fact clearer
  • ”Sideshow Bob, a conservative TV personality and clown who becomes a criminal as the series progresses” -> something like “Sideshow Bob, a clown and criminal” I think clown and criminal are all the context needed to understand the comparison.
    • Makes sense!

This is my first time doing anything FA related, so take this with a grain of salt MRN2electricboogaloo (talk) 17:03, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Ippantekina edit

  • Not sure if its position as the 11th track lead-worthy.
    • The intent was to show that it was a rap song in the middle of an album that is interestingly bookended by other rap songs. I switched to something else that is closer to communicating that message
  • "labels she wanted to dispel" shouldn't this be "a label" as this is... singular (from what I see)?
    • Mhmmm
  • I was advised to always attribute direct quotes to inline citations, and I see here in the lead we have "sad girl" and "aggressive" unattended to
    • MOS:LEADCITE says this is completely redundant when the information in the lead is cited later in the prose anyway
      • That is actually helpful!
  • "such as by saying one had a "dick [that] was wack"" ehh,, not sure if this can be paraphrased
    • Well ... I tried. I don't think there's a less facetious way of putting it
  • "the song charted in the United States and Canada, with a number 71 peak on the Billboard Global 200" grammatically I think this is incorrect, should be something like "charted in the US and Canada and reached number 71 on the Billboard Global 200"
    • An IP got to this before me (thank you, by the way!)

Those are my first-impression comments upon reading the lead. Will examine the prose later :) Ippantekina (talk) 09:13, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ippantekina!!!! Quality comments, as always, coming from a quality music editor! These should all be addressed now. Ready for the yet-to-come stuff :> ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 08:04, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay!!! Here to continue...

  • "Her next studio album was highly anticipated" by whom?? News? Media? Journalists? Music fans? etc etc
  • "of various disparate musical styles"
    • Done both
  • "is a boom bap song,[26] built around hard-hitting drum beats." missing final ref, and the comma is redundant
    • Hard-hitting drum beats are the core of boom bap, so the phrase is non-restrictive and hence the comma is necessary
  • Might be a personal preference but shouldn't it be "by contrast" instead?
    • that's okay

No other prose issues for me! :) Ippantekina (talk) 07:46, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ippantekina: done with everything . Thank you kindly for your comments! Good luck with the "You Belong with Me" article - would really love to see a childhood classic get a FA ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 02:39, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support this article for promotion on prose. Elias be killing it with every FAC as always! Ippantekina (talk) 02:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Footnote numbers refer to this version.

  • What makes exclaim.ca (FNs 22 & 52) a reliable source? It appears to be a freesheet; those can be reliable but I can't see anything about contributors or editorial policy on the website.
    • @Mike Christie - its list of contributors are over here, and Metacritic includes Exclaim! in its list of publications used to weigh Metacritic scores
  • The archive link for FN 33 is not for the same URL as the link for FN 33.
    • That's odd... should be fixed now . must be a copy-and-paste error on my end .
  • FN 33 has a publisher link, but I think the intention is that that's the publisher of the song. The publisher field in cite web is for the publisher of the website.
    • Done

I was unable to check some of the archive links as archive.org is responding very slowly at the moment, but otherwise that's everything I can see to complain about. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your Power, nudge. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:56, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you @Gog the Mild for the reminder ! and all comments should be addressed. sorry for not being around for so long :( ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 11:20, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No worries Your Power. RL happens, and obviously takes priority. Thanks for the update. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pass; fixes to the source review issue look fine, and exclaim.ca seems OK to me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:02, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment edit

I was reading through this with a view to closing and have a couple of queries.

  • The lead is meant to be a summary of the article, but in one area it seems to be the other way round, with the article summarising and the lead giving the detail. Article: "she finds various ways to insult her past lovers." Lead: "ridicules her past lovers in various ways, such as by insulting the quality of their penises." Perhaps these could be swapped?
    • Not really . the part of the prose from which you got the quotation gets expounded upon in the next paragraph:
    SZA raps about having "your favorite rapper" blocked on social media, saying she heard a rumor that his "dick was wack". Certain athletes, who try to flirt in her messages and incessantly ask she text them back but to no avail, are other subjects whom she targets}}
  • "Select music journalists". What or who made them select?
    • I used it as a synonym for "some" or "a few", but on second thought yeah they don't really have anything in common apart from "they said the same thing" . reworded
  • "Meanwhile, a few others argued the song's primary weakness was its length, feeling "Smoking on My Ex Pack" did not reach its full potential due to this." It is not clear whether the perceived weakness is because it is too long or too short. Perhaps ' Meanwhile, a few others argued the song's primary weakness was its length, feeling "Smoking on My Ex Pack" did not reach its full potential due to its brevity' or similar?

Gog the Mild (talk) 13:28, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ty for these ! hopefully my responses have been helpful ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 04:10, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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