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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Seiken Densetsu 3/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14:03, 16 January 2016 [1].

Seiken Densetsu 3 edit

Nominator(s): PresN 03:23, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In 1995, American/European role-playing video game fans were eagerly awaiting the release of what they called Secret of Mana 2—the sequel to 1993's Secret of Mana, widely considered then and now as one of the best 16-bit RPGs ever made. Their wait was in vain, though, as 20 years later, Seiken Densetsu 3 remains the only non-mobile game in the Mana series to never be released outside of Japan. Over the years, the vanished game took on a mythical quality, spurred on by a 2000 fan translation patch that allowed gamers to play it in English on emulators. Was it cancelled in favor of the ill-fated Secret of Evermore? Due to a rivalry between the Japanese and American branches of Square? Or, as it turns out, was it much more prosaic—the era of the Super Nintendo was drawing to a close, and sales projections weren't high enough to invest in an expensive translation/programming bug fix just to release the game into the then-niche Western JRPG field. Regardless, it became a right of passage- even xkcd has noted that if you haven't tracked it down, you can't call yourself a real JRPG fan. If only those poor gamers in 1995 could have had this article, now polished up for the 20th anniversary, to know what they were missing. The whole Mana series is a Good Topic, and this article, promoted to GA in Spring 2014, will be the 4th FA in the series, assuming it's as good as the other FAs in the series. Thanks all for reviewing! --PresN 03:23, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jaguar edit

  • No caption for the infobox image?
  • The lead states that it was released for the Super Nintendo Entertainment System whilst the infobox states Super Famicom. Is this a VG preference I'm not aware of?
  • "Although the game was only published in Japan, Western players have been able to play Seiken Densetsu 3 thanks to an unofficial English fan translation" - the body mentions nothing about western players, only that it was published on the internet? This could be reworded, but feel free to ignore this
  • "whichever character is currently selected, the other two companions are controlled by the computer" - how about by artificial intelligence?
  • "The remaining three characters act as non-playable characters (NPCs) when encountered" - Non-player character could be linked
  • "One type of weapon is available for each character" - are these weapons unique for each character?
  • "According to Fehdrau, the game did not tie up any people who would have been involved in a translation of Seiken Densetsu 3;" - I'm not quite sure what this means
  • "A second preview in Next Generation in February 1996, now calling the game Secret of Mana 2 as well" - sounds a bit too present tense if it's referring to a 1996 review. Alternately, I would personally remove "as well" because I think it sounds a tad informal
  • "Overall, the game is regarded by many as a SNES classic" - 'by many' is a bit vague. I know a lot of FAC reviewers don't like this language (I've had similar experiences in previous FACs), so I feel this could be rephrased to by many critics or something similar?
  • "The 1UP.com review agreed" - would 1UP.com reviewer sound more appropriate?

Those were all of the minor prose issues I found during my read-through. I also checked the references and found no paraphrasing issues, otherwise anything I would have spotted would be listed here. All in all this is a great article that displays all traits of the FA criteria. JAGUAR  17:28, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Jaguar: replied below
  • I typically don't put captions for infobox cover art
  • No, the preference is according to WPVG guidelines to always use SNES unless there's a good reason because it gets confusing (like when I then talk about it being one of the best SNES RPGs). Changed to Super Nintendo everywhere.
  • Reworded to "English-speaking"
  • Done
  • Done
  • Yes, reworded to make more obvious
  • Reworded to clarify
  • removed both
  • Changed to semicolon to link the sentence more with the cited statements; I don't want to change it to "critics" since the sentence after that is about the GameFAQs reader polls ranking it highly for years.
  • Changed there and in a couple other spots where I quote a "review" instead of a reviewer. --PresN 03:48, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addressing them. I've had another look through the article and everything seems good to me. As before, I couldn't find any issues with the references so I'm willing to support this article. Just one thing, the infobox is appearing much wider (I think due to the inclusion of 'Super Nintendo Entertainment System'), not sure if this is only happening to me because of my wide monitor resolution but I wouldn't worry about it anyway. Nice work with this one! JAGUAR  15:15, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Yeah, looks like the infobox widens itself if the parameter is long (but only if its wikilinked...); corrected. --PresN 15:57, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ProtoDrake edit

I will be coming back for more comments, but some things must be said at once.

  • The Wayback Machine archiving of 1UP links no longer work due to robots.txt. You must use WebCite for these pages. I would also recommend looking through for any other links like that.
  • GameFAQs, being primarily a user-based website, is classified as an unreliable website. Also, Seiken Densetsu 3 being one of the most searched-for terms on the site seems small recognition compared to other things mentioned there.
  • "...such as "Debussian impressionist styles, his own heavy electronic and synth ideas, and even ideas of popular musicians"." - This quote refers to one reviewer, but the sentence infers that it is the opinion of multiple critics. You should either specify that it is one reviewer's description, or remove the quote and put an additional reference at the end of the sentence.
  • The image for Hiromichi Tanaka should have a full stop at the end of the sentence. It might also be prudent to add a minor not as to when the picture was taken. The second part is not that important.
  • The image for Hiroki Kikuta: not only should you add a full stop within its box, but the image itself has a glaring "Low quality picture" warning message in it, which may impact its usability. Can this be addressed?
  • This is purely option, I think, but despite it being stated that the game was not released overseas, I think it would be good to specify that the game's quotes are from a fan translation. As I said, purely optional.
  • The "Seiken Densetsu 3 Original Sound Version" has two release dates attached. While this is explained in the text, I think some note of the second date being for a re-release should be present.

What is there is all I could see that stood out. Aside from that, it looks good. --ProtoDrake (talk) 18:39, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Done
  • Removed
  • Noted the specific critic; looks like the line was originally just "described as", then JimmyBlackwing added "by critics" in the Secret of Mana FAC, and no one else commented on it.
  • It is not a full sentence, so it does not get a full stop; added "in 2007"
  • Modified to not be a full sentence, and have the year taken. I higher-res version does not exist; it's a tight crop of [2], and the original was only 640x427. I found a copyrighted one from 2011 on flickr that might be better; I'll ask for a re-license but I usually get a ~30% success rate with that.
  • It worked, put in the new photo; it's only slightly higher-res but it's still a net positive. --PresN 22:39, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "(fan translation)" added to platform in quote citations
  • Done --PresN 20:18, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I can't see anything else outstanding preventing this from moving ahead. I Support its promotion. --ProtoDrake (talk) 23:03, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SnowFire edit

Mostly looks good, but a few nitpicks.

  • Where exactly are these character name translations coming from? Not the Corlett translation, which IIRC used Hawk, Lise, Carlie, Navarre, Rolante, Beast Kingdom, etc. Are these systematic Romanizations of the Japanese names, or are you using a different source? Either way it should probably be referenced somehow.
    • Related, but the article uses both "God Beasts" and "Mana Beasts". Might be best to standardize on one ("God Beasts" I assume?) unless there is actually a distinction.
  • "Unlike the previous game, where each spell was improved through use, the effectiveness of spells depends on the magical ability of the character and the element of the spell in relation to the enemy." --> This seems to imply that Secret of Mana didn't have enemy elemental resistances & strengths, which isn't the case. Additionally, while stats ("magical ability of the character") didn't have *much* impact on SoM spell power, they did have some, and anyway this kind of magic-damage-algorithm-comparison is probably too technical for the article even if it was true. I'd just delete the sentence.
  • "When in battle mode, the character adds one point to his or her "power gauge" by making an attack which hits a monster. When the gauge is full, special moves can be unleashed, which vary according to the character." --> Seems like excessive detail, too. "Attacking monsters fills a gauge that allows the player to use character-specific special attacks" or the like?
  • "A week cycles much more quickly than an actual one—a day passes in a number of minutes—but it still affects gameplay in certain ways." --> Is there reason to think that a quickly cycling day cycle wouldn't affect gameplay? These are two separate thoughts. "A week cycles much more quickly than an actual one, with a day passing in a number of minutes. The day affects gameplay blah blah blah..."
  • "Kevin (ケヴィン Kevin?) is the inarticulate prince of Ferolia" -> "Inarticulate" isn't the right word, and I'm not sure the current link to speech impediment is right either? Kevin speaks *broken* English in the Corlett translation (although none of the other Beast Kingdom members do). It's much more "English/Japanese as a 2nd language" / "Caveman talk". I have no idea what the original Japanese script did with him, of course, but "inarticulate" would just mean he's not very convincing or charismatic in his speech, not "he uses a very basic and grammatically incorrect style of speech."
  • " or the Deathjester and Heath, who has joined forces with him," -> "or Deathjester and a mind-controlled Heath" perhaps?
  • "the connections between each title are more abstract than story-based, linked only on the karmic level" --> This is a nonsensical use of "karma", and checking the source, seems a pretty strange summary. Just leave it as "connections between each title are more abstract than them being direct sequels" or the like.
  • "so as to gain ultimate power, politically and magically" -> Cut the last three words? And it's mostly magical ultimate power.
  • There's an awful lot of detail on Secret of Mana+, which IIRC is mostly SoM remixes and less SD3 tunes (I reserve the right to be totally wrong here). Even if it was a 50/50 split... seems like it'd be worthwhile to trade a sentence on SoM+ for more sentences on the SD3 OST itself, at least if there are any other sources covering the OST to be had. SnowFire (talk) 08:01, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@SnowFire: Responded below:
  • They're romanizations of the Japanese names; changed everywhere to use the Corlett version, since that's the most common English one.
    • God Beasts
  • Removed the comparison; while the issue would be fixed by saying "only" by the character's magic stat and the element used, the comparison to SoM is too detailed. I do want to keep the idea that the element of the magic matters; the 8 elements (with their stones, elementals, beasts, etc.) are a big part of the background of the game and they don't get a lot of detail here.
  • Agreed, done.
  • Ended up just cutting the second half of that- no need to state that the day of the week affects gameplay, if the very next sentence discusses exactly how it affects gameplay anyway.
  • Can't think of a good replacement word, and as the concept doesn't deserve a big explanation since it doesn't affect gameplay or the plot at all, dropped it
  • Hmm, it's a little spoilery- you don't know he's being mind controlled the first time you run into them, right?- and I left out the other twists, like the Darkshine Knight being Duran's father, but changed anyway
  • Done.
  • Cut.
  • Dropped a sentence, but there's not much else to be had for the regular OST.
Thanks for reviewing! --PresN 20:15, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me. By the way, just to be clear, I'd have been fine with keeping the straight-up Japanese names too if you'd rather it be that way, just I thought they should be sourced if they did. Regardless, Support. SnowFire (talk) 22:26, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Rhain1999 edit

Just a few minor things from me:

  • Is "(new Square Enix)" in the lead meant to say "(now Square Enix)"?
  • "English-speaking players have been able to play Seiken Densetsu 3 thanks to..." I feel like "thanks" is not the most neutral word in this context (perhaps "due to"?). This is just a personal thing though, so no harm if it's kept.
  • The first paragraph of "Characters" is unsourced.
  • This is just a personal preference, but in "Reception", I'd split the first paragraph into three: the general sentences about the reviews, the graphics, and the music.
  • When I write articles, I usually repeat the name of the publication along with the name of the reviewer ("RPGamer's Parsons", "Riley of Cubed3", etc.), but I understand that a lot of articles don't use this (and I can see why).

That's all I could see, and most of them are personal preference anyway. Great job with this! – Rhain1999 (talk to me) 00:04, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Whoops, that got introduced a couple days ago. Fixed.
  • Done.
  • As noted in the current thread about in at WT:VG, citations are optional for the plot section, since it's implicitly sourced to the game; I still put in a bunch of quote citations anyways, since I think it's helpful/interesting, but there's no quote-based way to source that part of "Characters". I do have one cite that I can copy to there to cite that the plot follows the main character chosen, though.
  • I'd rather not, since it would leave it with three paragraphs of 3, 4, and 2 sentences, which are in my opinion a little short.
  • I've done it both ways; it's not a big deal to switch it, especially since such a high fraction of the reviews for this one don't have names to start with. Done.
@Rhain1999: Replied inline. --PresN 17:55, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for those changes! I understand that citations are optional for the plot section, but if you have a reference (particularly for a "Characters" section, which I think is more important to cite than the "Story" section itself), then it might as well be used, so thanks for that. As far as I can see, there isn't really anything holding this article back, so I'm very happy to support this candidacy. It's a shame there aren't more comments on here (as I'm experiencing myself), but I wish you luck with the rest of this FAC! I'm sure it's very close to promotion, anyway. – Rhain1999 (talk to me) 23:24, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review:

For the sources, I looked at this version, and I checked sources 1, 3–5, 8–9, 32–33, 39–40, 42–49, 51–53, and 55. I only found a few minor problems:

  • Source 1 is used to support "as opposed to the three of Secret of Mana", but I couldn't find this in the source.
  • Source 3 is used to support the second Gameplay paragraph, yet most of the information from the paragraph isn't present in the source.
  • Source 4 is used to support the use of the Mana Stones in the game, as well as the optional second class change at level 38, but the information is absent from the source.
  • Source 5 is used to support the statement regarding "Will-o'-the-Wisp the light elemental and Shade the dark elemental", but these are not mentioned in the source.
  • Source 33 is archived, but has an error; replace it with this URL.
  • Source 46 no longer works; use this instead (minor change to the URL).
  • Source 48 is used to support the inclusion of "Where Angels Fear to Tread" in Seiken Densetsu 3, but this is not mentioned in the source.

Everything else looked good. Bonus points for archiving, too. – Rhain1999 (talk to me) 06:36, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Changed the rationale template for the cover image
  • Added a Secret of Mana source for that fragment
  • Got most of it with the other sources, and pulled out a couple minor details I couldn't get explicitly sourced.
  • Added another source that covers those specific details
  • Missed that, I removed all the other element names before the FAC. Now dropped.
  • archiveurl replaced
  • Done
  • Ah, that was in the other source. Properly cited it, and reworded to more closely match the source.
@Rhain1999: Addressed all of your points! --PresN 18:53, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addressing everything! After taking another look at the article, I'm happy to support on images and sources. – Rhain1999 (talk to me) 23:31, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Axem Titanium edit

  • God-Beast or God Beast? They're both used. Is there a difference?
  • You mention "Duran and Angela" at the beginning of Characters but then talk about Angela first, unlike with the other two pairs.
  • Are these names taken from the fan translation? If so, might be worth mentioning somewhere.
  • "Altenish" is this an official term? If not, "citadel in/at Altena" is probably less OR.
  • Nevarre/Navarre?
  • Is it important to specify that Isabella is "Bigieu"? It seems the name only appears once later in the story section, so it's worth considering glossing over this detail for clarity.
  • "He shows the king his abilities by forcing Kevin to awaken his werewolf abilities by killing his best friend. When Kevin confronts the Beast King on this act and his plans to invade the human Holy City Wendel, he is thrown out of the kingdom and swears revenge" - tons of he/his pronouns that I can't decipher their antecedents
  • " The main character—now including Carlie—on the way to Wendel stay overnight in Astoria where they are woken by a bright light" - subject verb agreement: "The main character [...] stay overnight"?
  • "an Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES) game"
  • You don't need to call out reviewer's affiliation after introducing them, you can just use the last name

Axem Titanium (talk) 22:54, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Axem Titanium: Replied below.
  • Darn it, I thought I fixed that before
  • Swapped
  • Done
  • Added a note
  • Okay, I really remember fixing those, and I clearly missed a lot
  • Now just Isabella
  • pronouns reduced
  • stays
  • a
  • I hadn't been, but I literally just added them 4 days ago due to the last reviewer; I think they should stay because half of the reviews don't have a stated reviewer, so it was half publication names and half last names. --PresN 00:31, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note -- have I missed image and source reviews above? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:17, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Ian Rose: it wasn't there before, but there is now an image and a source review just above and passed. --PresN 00:33, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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