Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Satoru Iwata/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Graham Beards via FACBot (talk) 16:27, 8 October 2015 [1].

Satoru Iwata edit

Nominator(s): Cyclonebiskit (talk) 00:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A brilliant man who needs no introduction in the gaming world, Satoru Iwata is widely regarded as one of the main (if not, the main) people who brought video games to the general public en masse. His background as a programmer gave him invaluable knowledge that propelled him to the top of the world's largest game company by the age of 42. His name became synonymous with Nintendo as he frequently appeared in the Iwata Asks and Nintendo Direct series or on social media to bring information "directly to you". During his 15 years at Nintendo (13 as president), Iwata turned the struggling company around and propelled it to incredible heights by pushing for more accessible gaming. This included production and release of blockbuster consoles such as the Nintendo DS and Wii, both of which are among the best-selling video game consoles. His tragic death at the age of 55 shook the entire gaming community and is seen as a tremendous loss for the industry. Iwata is beloved for his cheerful, humorous, and inquisitive personality as well as passion to produce quality video games for everyone.

It's been an absolute pleasure to write and improve this article over the past month and a half since Iwata's passing. I believe this to be the most comprehensive account of his life's work around. It goes without saying that as the years go by, more information about Iwata's life will emerge and when the time comes I will be more than happy to include such information. This was my time writing first biographic article so I have some uncertainties over how I've put it together, but I hope you all enjoy reading (and critiquing) this as much as I did writing it. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 00:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to help Cyclonebiskit with any issues that might come up since I helped improved this at news of his death. Cyclone's improves have been very good. --MASEM (t) 00:39, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments From Indrian

This is a very good article, but I don't think its quite there yet. It may be possible to whip it into shape during the nomination period, but it will take a little work. Right now the biggest source hole is Nintendo Magic: Winning the Video Game Wars which was written by a Japanese analyst and translated into English. This book contains interviews with Iwata, Miyamoto, Takeda, and even Hiroshi Yamauchi and provides additional background on Iwata and the creation of the DS and the Wii. Without incorporating this high quality source, the article cannot pass well-researched criteria. A few more specific thoughts:

  • "where his father was a municipal mayor" Iwata's father was a civil servant all his life, but he only became a mayor when Iwata was already in college.
    • Corrected to "prefectural official" per Nintendo Magic; municipal mayor aspect also added to the HAL Laboratory section. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 03:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • More info on his early programming exploits would be nice. This translated book excerpt at Shmuplations gives more information on Iwata's first encounter with computers, and Nintendo Magic provides more detail on his calculator games.
    • From what I've read so far in Nintendo Magic (about half the book), the only real mention of his calculator games was their names (p. 57). Added details from the translated source provided as well. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 03:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nintendo Magic also clarifies his early HAL involvement a little bit. The company was actually established as a hardware company, and Iwata was their only software guy in the beginning. He fell in with the HAL crowd because he would bring his programs in to a local department store to show them off.
    • Made the appropriate corrections and clarifications. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 03:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Iwata's heavy involvement in the development with Kirby's Dream Land is credited as one of the main reasons that the series was able to take off." This is overreach. The source only says that he was heavily involved in creating the first game and that it may not have been finished without him. It does not credit his input with being crucial to the success of the game or the launch of the series. According to Nintendo Magic Miyamoto deserves as much credit as anyone because he told HAL the originally planned game -- which did not star Kirby and was going to be published through HAL -- could be much better and not only gave them more time to finish it, but decided to have Nintendo publish it to give it a higher profile.
    • Removed the bit about Kirby's Dream Land altogether based on the info from Nintendo Magic. Iwata being involved with the Kirby series is already mentioned so bringing up a specific title is redundant and, as you stated, gives unnecessary weight to his involvement. Explaining the specifics in order to keep this bit would go beyond the article's scope and is fare more suited for the game's article. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 03:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Martin Robinson suggests that Yamauchi saw similar traits in Iwata that he did in Gunpei Yokoi, who brought Nintendo into the video game market" This claim in the source is not really supported by evidence. At this stage in his career, Iwata was not creating the kind of "games for everyone" products that typified his early tenure as president of Nintendo, nor was he involved in hardware products created with the "lateral thinking" philosophy that Yokoi employed to create the Game & Watch and Nintendo later used to create the Wii. According to Nintendo Magic, the shift to "games for everyone" occurred at Nintendo in the early 2000s due to the sharp decline in the Japanese video game market in the late 1990s. Also, in Nintendo Magic Yamauchi said that he chose Iwata as his successor because he was a "software person," i.e. someone who understood that technology only got you so far and game experiences were more important. As Iwata was the only founding member of HAL that was software rather than hardware focused, this probably accounts for why Yamauchi insisted on his appointment as HAL president as well. The statement by Robinson comparing Iwata to Yokoi is a narrative convention to make his story more interesting rather than an actual scholarly argument.
    • I've removed the claim by Robinson accordingly and expanded upon the history of the "blue ocean" strategy. From what I've understood in Nintendo Magic, the company knew there needed to be a change but it wasn't until Iwata took charge that the direction was finally understood. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 03:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • So, a few things about Iwata's promotion to President. First, he did not have the same amount of power as his predecessor. Yamauchi basically was Nintendo and behaved autocratically according to most accounts, which is contrary to the typical Japanese consensus management style. When Iwata became president, the company also raised four other executives to the title of representative director and created an executive committe. Miyamoto and Takeda were both on this committee and assumed greater power over software and hardware development respectively, and there were a couple of more financially and business oriented guys. Sources for this should be readily available online. Second, there should be more info about how he changed the company culture by engaging with employees at all levels of the company. Iwata Asks was part of that, but he also encouraged employees of all levels to submit creative ideas, again very atypical in Japan, and tried to encourage cross-pollination between departments. Nintendo Magic goes into all of that. Finally, the Miyamoto quote about stuffiness and ventilation originally comes from Nintendo Magic, so it should really be sourced there rather than to the Firestone book.
    • Please don't overlook this one. I think its useful to note that while Yamauchi was essentially an autocrat, Iwata served as a first among equals with several other directors. This also plays into the more inclusive and collaborative atmosphere that predominated at Nintendo during this period.
      • I haven't gotten to this one yet since I have yet to finish reading the part that covers it in Nintendo Magic. Should get to it later today. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 08:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the time of Iwata's promotion, Nintendo was not performing as well as other console makers" I think this lacks a little nuance. Nintendo was a profitable company during this entire period because they owned handheld, were able to make a small profit on each Gamecube sold, and made a mint on Gamecube software sales. Obviously, however, they lagged way behind Sony in hardware sales and were edged out by Mircosoft as well (a more devastating defeat in the West than it appears based on raw numbers alone since Microsoft managed to outsell them while selling essentially nothing in Japan). Nintendo performed well financially, but lacked console marketshare. There is nothing technically wrong with your statement; I just worry about painting a picture of a company in deep trouble when it was highly profitable.
    • Added "though still a profitable company" to the sentence in question to avoid it being misleading. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 03:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the article may over credit Iwata for the DS. It was Yamauchi that wanted two screens and Miyamoto that came up with the touch screen concept. Also, while it is fair to say that Iwata played a key role in leading the company towards "games for everyone," less intimidating control schemes, and ignoring the technological arms race, Nintendo Magic emphasizes that these strategies were developed in collaboration and the groundwork was laid before Iwata was president (though after he was already active in corporate planning). On the other hand, there is no mention at all about the DSi, which was built around the concept of "one system for every person" as a way to grow the DS market after it appeared to be saturated due to nearly every household in Japan owning one. This strategy appears to have originated from Iwata.
    • Explained the the basis of DS stemmed from Yamauchi and Miyamoto and added a bit about the DSi. Iwata was far less involved with the DS than the Wii, with Miyamoto mostly taking the helm on the DS's development, from what I've read in Nintendo Magic, which accounts for the lesser size of the "Nintendo DS" section despite its extreme success. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 03:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • This is almost done, but I would still like to see a more in-depth look at the DSi. In short, the Japanese market was virtually saturated at the time, and Iwata hit on the idea of creating a cheaper, slimmer model that would encourage households to buy multiple units. This was an unprecedented move in console hardware and crucial to the DS family achieving its status as the best-selling game system of all time.
        • I've expanded it a bit more with specifics on sales and a brief mention about why they were successful, but I can't find any reliable sources (most of what I found that mentions the DS and market saturation are on forums) that explain what you're looking for about the saturated market. In fact, I found evidence contrary to your statements from Iwata himself: "Iwata still sees vast market for current DS hardware" Cyclonebiskit (talk) 08:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
          • @Cyclonebiskit:Nintendo Magic addresses this I believe. And actually, the article you linked to here also addresses the exact point I am making. Based on conventional wisdom, the DS market was saturated because at the time no one ever bought more than one system per household. The point of the DSi was an attempt to move the handheld market to one system per person. In the article, Iwata is saying that the DS market is not saturated based on total population rather than household penetration, but that was a novel idea at the time, which is why the article calls it a "big dream." I would still like to see this reflected in the article. Your expansion is 99% of the way there, I am just looking for something about how the one system per person strategy was novel at the time. Indrian (talk) 13:53, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, the article slightly overstates Iwata's influence on the Wii. Once again, there is no doubt that his leadership at the top influenced the overall strategy of a less intimidating console that did not try to achieve cutting edge grahpics, but reading both Nintendo Magic and various Iwata Asks interviews it was Takeda and Miyamoto that shaped most of its key features, including motion control. Iwata set the tone, but the success of the system was due to the creative talent.
    • I've reworked the section a bit to better indicate the influences behind the console. I think details from Nintendo Magic are sufficient in conveying that Iwata was the one driving the metaphorical Wii-bus while Miyamoto, Takeda, and Nintendo engineers were the one who created it. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 03:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 2010-2015 section is lacking in size and scope. The earlier sections are quick to credit Iwata for success with the Wii and the DS, but this section does not discuss his role in Nintendo's failures. There have been heaps of criticism written about Nintendo's "walled garden" online strategy, its refusal to consider the lucrative mobile market, the strange focus Iwata placed from time to time on "lifestyle" games and accessories that never went anywhere, and the company's failure to adapt quickly to the greater demands of HD development. With the Wii and DS, Nintendo placed itself at the head of the casual market, but it misread that market with the 3DS and Wii U, which led to the first losses at the company in thirty years. This should not be glossed over.
    • Expanded upon this greatly and split off the the quality of life ("lifestyle") and mobile market aspects into their own sub-sections. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 03:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • This is all well done. The only additional change on this point I would make is mentioning the lifestyle section in the lead since it is now a prominent section of the body. A single sentence should suffice.

That's all for now. I know its a lot, but I really do feel the article is on the right track. Good luck! Indrian (talk) 16:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for the review, Indrian! Once I have Nintendo Magic at my disposal I'll start cracking on the related comments. Should be able to look into the "walled garden" aspect you mentioned sooner, though. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Indrian: – If you have any suggestions as to which of the Iwata Asks interviews to look through I'd greatly appreciate it (with over 200 of them, reading through them all with a fine-toothed comb would be overwhelming). Already compiled multiple references to add more information to the 2010–15 section and still going...honestly, I'm a bit embarrassed that I overlooked this much information. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 20:39, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cyclonebiskit:Wow, this is really coming along! If you can source a copy of Nintendo Magic, I am fairly confident we can get this whipped into shape. As for Iwata Asks, its been too long since I've read most of them to know exactly which may have the best info pertaining to Iwata himself. I would definitely check out any related to hardware products though, because that is where the general company philosophy stuff tends to shine through. As I stated before, I get the sense he was particularly involved with formulating the strategy for the DSi. I look forward to your continued progress. Indrian (talk) 17:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Indrian: – Got a copy of Nintendo Magic today~ :) I'll start reading it tomorrow and work on chipping away at the missing/misrepresented information that this book can amend. In the meantime, would you mind checking back over the "Financial downturn" and "Mobile market" sections to see if they're up to snuff and if not, what's still missing? When you have time, of course. I haven't run across anything about the lack of HD development nor a direct, negative view of Iwata's insistence on "lifestyle" games...just mentions that the games/accessories exist. Thanks in advance! Cyclonebiskit (talk) 23:21, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cyclonebiskit:Sorry to take a bit to get back to you. Glad you have a copy of the book now. I'll try to take a closer look at the revamped sections soon. In answer to your specific queries, this article explores Nintendo's difficulty adapting to HD with the Wii U. Its not really an Iwata specific complaint, but its part of why the company has struggled a bit this generation. As for the lifestyle stuff, I would Google "Iwata" and "vitality sensor." Its not so much criticism as people found his decision to try and make lifestyle products rather odd and could not see where he was going with the concept. It did appear to be a concept close to his own heart though, so it deserves a mention. Let me know if you need anything else. Indrian (talk) 15:00, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cyclonebiskit:This article has come a long way in a short time. Kudos for all your hard work! I have given the article a copy edit and updated my list of concerns above to acknowledge that most of them have been addressed. There are just a few small points left, which I elaborated on above. Once those issues are dealt with, I will probably be ready to support, though I will need to do a final pass on the article to be sure. Well done! Indrian (talk) 20:02, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Indrian: Thank you very much! I've replied to the additional comments, but I'll reiterate here that I'm still working on the sixth bullet point. I'll another drop a ping when I've addressed that particular one (which is the only outstanding major concern I believe). Cyclonebiskit (talk) 08:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Indrian: I think I've covered everything now. Recent developments with Kimishima taking over as President have also been added by ThomasO1989. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:42, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. This review is not abandoned; I have just been ridiculously busy the past few days. I believe my concerns are mostly met, I just need to do that final review. Hopefully this weekend. Indrian (talk) 13:58, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support After one more thorough copy edit, I am ready to throw my support behind this excellent article. Kudos once again to @Cyclonebiskit: for putting in an incredible amount of work over the last couple of weeks. Well done! Indrian (talk) 16:10, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment—sorry to overwhelm you, Cyclonebiskit, but I feel one other thing that the article is missing is a conclusive Influence or Legacy section to end the article. Concluding by talking about Iwata's death makes chronological sense, but it leaves you without an overall afterthought about how his life impacted the video game industry. Even if short, a section discussing this would touch off the article very nicely. Are there any sources that cover Iwata's overall importance and influence in the world (eg. posthumous honours, comments from biographers, game critics, or even criticism about his overall involvement in Nintendo, etc.) that could be compiled to compose this section? The Wikipedian Penguin 20:57, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There are some bits here and there within the article already that can be reworked into a section like that, yeah. Probably can pull together a paragraph or two. The scope might be relatively limited, and as I've seen some reports say, we likely won't understand the full scale of his influence for several years. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:23, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good point, the information will come with time, yes. But even, as you say, a paragraph or two would go a long way toward giving the article that final touch. The Wikipedian Penguin 21:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikipedian Penguin: – Gave the section an initial go: Satoru Iwata#Influence and legacy. Is this the gist of what was needed? Cyclonebiskit (talk) 01:17, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is definitely what you should be aiming for, content-wise. I'd bring the tone down a little, as in certain parts, it sounds like a eulogy. I think the quote is unnecessary and I'd pay particular attention to avoiding weasel words. Some expressions such as "pushing" unconventional ideas, "whole new" genre and "break down a wall" are somewhat journalistic and promotional and should be redrawn. And if there was criticism of Iwata to balance the section out, do consider including it. Overall, this is just what is needed to finish the article. The Wikipedian Penguin 01:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome, thanks! Still trying to get used to writing in a different style...hurricanes seldom have POV issues (mostly just factual type writing) so it's not an area I'm familiar with handling. As for the quote, I felt it was an appropriate addition to bounce off his "legacy" by emphasizing his view on video games which shaped his entire career. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 02:13, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It was brave of you to venture from hurricane articles into this, so well done! Once the updating is complete, I'd be glad to give the article another go, a Nintendo fan myself. The Wikipedian Penguin 12:18, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikipedian Penguin: I believe I've addressed all of Indrian's concerns in regards to content so the updating should be complete now. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 22:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Cyclonebiskit. I'll surely take a look at this over the weekend. I wish I could do so sooner, but I'm busy all day because of university. The Wikipedian Penguin 22:28, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wholeheartedly sorry that I haven't been able to look at this yet. I had no idea how busy I would become all of a sudden, but I will get to this whenever I can. Sadly, I'm now finding it difficult to make any promises though. The Wikipedian Penguin 21:36, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commenting on images (as I am involved with the article), I will point out the following:
As such, I'm not seeing any immediate issues with the images but again, I'm involved and a second check would help. --MASEM (t) 18:14, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Citation formatting review - did not check for reliability (though at a superficial glance everything seems OK)

  • Title punctuation: watch for style errors in article titles such as spaced hyphens misused for spaced en dashes (e.g. FN 6), no capitalization after colons (e.g. FN 11), etc.
  • Don't need to include designations such as "Ltd", "Inc" for publishers
  • Check for consistency in wikilinking publishers, newspapers etc. on multiple use. IGN is linked repeatedly (though not in all instances) while The Guardian is only linked on first and second use.
  • FN 21: Check host website (not the same as that for other Iwata Asks interviews)
  • FN 49: Check title punctuation
  • FN 51: Is "GamesIndustry.biz" publisher or website. Furthermore, wikilink redirects to Eurogamer
  • Be consistent in whether you include publishers for websites (e.g. FN 11 vs FN 20)
  • Be consistent in whether you include locations for news sources or not
  • Be consistent in whether news article titles are capitalized or not (compare FNs 1 & 2 with FNs 25 & 26; formatting of the former is preferred)
  • Be consistent in whether you list website names as publishers or work (e.g. FNs 37, 71, etc. vs FNs 11)
  • Be consistent in how magazines are formatted, namely publishers and whether these are included (e.g. FN 12 vs FN 52; FNs 42 & 63 vs FN 52, FN 64 vs FNs 83 & 84)

This is it for now (got till FN 88). Mainly check throughout for consistency in how and when the work and publisher fields are used. I will check again (as well as the second half of the references) once this has been resolved. Auree ★★ 03:03, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support on criteria 1c and 2c only (source formatting and reliability). I ended up checking every source for quality and approved. Thanks for your diligence, Cyclonebiskit! Auree ★★ 14:57, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Noting that all concerns were addressed through off-wiki discussion. Thank you very much for taking the time to both review the sources and guide me through how to properly improve them! I greatly appreciate it. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:07, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Cas Liber on comprehensiveness and prose edit

Reading through now....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:35, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One of his main reasons for taking the job was simply to spend more time around computers - "simply" redundant
While still attending university,... - "still" redundant
Lacking prior experience in management, - "prior" redundant (all experience is prior...)
Iwata's proficiency with programming quickly garnered him "cult status" among fellow programmers and gamers alike. Iwata would often continue to work on weekends and holidays because of his passion - I'd dequote and reword "cult status" why not just, "Iwata's proficiency with programming quickly placed him in high regard/esteem among fellow programmers and gamers alike. Iwata would often continue to work on weekends and holidays because of his passion"
while still creating unique game experiences. - uumm, you mean, "while preserving quality"?
Iwata established a "sense of crisis" in the gaming market in his keynote speech at the 2003 Tokyo Game Show. - again, dequote and reword ("highlighted an urgency/warning")
In a March 2004 interview, Iwata stated: "Games have come to a dead end. " - dequote and reword
@Casliber: Do you have any suggestions for how to reword this one? I'm drawing a blank here. The way it's written now has the quote followed by an expansion upon what Iwata meant with this statement. Thanks in advance. I've made the recommended changes in line with your other comments. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 23:33, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah point taken - I can see a point to leaving it as is anyway. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:30, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment (having stumbled here from my FAC). Only minor quibble I can point out at the moment is there's a few places with short paragraph and one or two-sentence-long paragraphs. The intro is nice then breaks off suddenly to that short bit about his death. Maybe that could be started with Later hardware releases like the Nintendo 3DS leading off the last paragraph perhaps. — Cirt (talk) 00:50, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Cirt: I think tagging the bit about his illness and subsequent death onto the proposed new paragraph would retain the same flow as it does now. It would either have to jump back and forth between his work to illness to retain chronology. The way it's set up now closes off his general work and public reception (for lack of a better word) and then moves into his passing in a separate, short paragraph since there's a change of ideas. If you know of a way to work around this, it would be greatly appreciated. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 23:33, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Satoru_Iwata/archive1&oldid=1138470857"