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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Samuel Colt/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 19:41, 20 January 2012 [1].

Samuel Colt edit

Samuel Colt (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 00:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... "God made men, Samuel Colt made them equal". I found this article in poor shape, it was loaded with misconceptions, terrible prose and poor sourcing. I put in a lot of work on it, improving the prose and adding references and citations. I took a break from it to work on a few supporting pieces including his company and a biography of his brother John C. Colt that I will bring to FAC if this is successful. Recently took it to GA status and feel it is ready for FAC. Most people know Colt as the inventor of the revolver, but he was much more than that. He was America's first Industrialist Tycoon; he built a company that has continually stayed in business for almost 2 centuries; in his lifetime he created or perfected the assembly line method of production, introduced the advertising phrase "new and improved", used art and corporate gifts as marketing tools, sought better working conditions for his employees and bullied, bribed, bartered, and worked his way to the top of his field. His life's motto was"If I can’t be first, I won’t be second in anything. The little reputation I have gained for originality of thought and conception has grown out of the impression made by that simple adage and however inferior in wealth I may be to many who surround me I would not exchange for their treasure the satisfaction I have in knowing I have done what never before has been accomplished by man. " Thank you.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 00:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Media review Interesting fella

—Andrewstalk 04:23, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I fixed the missing infoon the first 2, I will look into requesting a touch up on Walker's picture, I might have a source for that artist on the factory, but I cannot remember where I saw it, should not take more than a day or 2. I attributed the 2 links, let me know if you have any other comcerns and thanks again for the media review. PS, if you think he's got an interesting story, check out the brother's article at John C. Colt.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 06:21, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, the armory picture from 1857 is an illustration from a now defunct magazine that never credited its illustrators. I submitted Walker's pirtrait to the photo lab, thanks I never knew we had such a resource.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 15:36, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, that portrait of Walker looks fantastic now! Good job, happy to support. —Andrewstalk 22:42, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support on criterion 3 only —Andrewstalk 22:42, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. Oppose. Hi Mike, welcome back to FAC. The problem is that there are so many little problems that I won't be able to fix them all in the two hours I generally devote to copyediting at FAC. Running through quickly, "william Marcy and President James K Polk" (uppercase, missing period), "US" vs. "U.S." (be consistent ... "US" is a little better at FAC these days), "Hartford Connecticut" (lots of these ... you need a comma after the city, and if there's no other punctuation after the state, another comma after the state ... WT:Checklist has links to style guides on this point), "His second attempt making mines for naval use" (it wasn't his second attempt making mines ... it was his second attempt, making mines. You need commas before non-restrictive clauses), "Colt's revolvers saw use" (oops, I see someone has fixed this already ... in general, avoid "saw" in this sense, except when shifting the reader's focus to a particular time period ... "the 1940s saw the introduction of ..." is sometimes okay), "Colt's innovative contributions to the weapons industry have been described by arms historian James E. Serven as 'events ...' " (a contribution isn't usually an event), "double barreled rifle" (hyphen), "districtscuttled" (oops). There's no requirement, of course, that you have to be good at catching stuff like this yourself ... many great writers aren't ... as long as you can find someone to do it. You can try listing it at WP:FACG, although the Guild will probably take a few weeks to get to it. - Dank (push to talk) 20:00, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your honest comments, I fixed almost all of these. Sometimes I think we need a spellchecker type of tool built in here or some type of a gui to make it easier to add wikilinks after the writing. I copied and pasted the article into MS Word and caught what you pointed out and a few others.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:32, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Very nice work by you and by User:MathewTownsend on this one. I should be able to get at least a significant chunk of it done, now, I'll get started. - Dank (push to talk) 14:38, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk) 14:40, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note that in some cases, my changes might shift the meaning, if I think I'm probably right and if the tighter language seems necessary to meet FAC standards ... so please explain or revert if I get the meaning wrong. For instance, I shortened "Colt is credited as being the first industrialist to successfully make use of the assembly line method of production." to "The first industrialist to make successful use of the assembly line, Colt ...". (Too many sentences were starting with "Colt", for one thing.) - Dank (push to talk) 15:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I appreciate the changes. Often I get put off by my own writing for that reason, I like seeing alternatives.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did a lot of fiddling with the lead, feel free to tweak or ask why I did what I did; FAC standards for the lead are a little tough. Skimming, it looks like I can leave most of the rest of the article intact. - Dank (push to talk) 15:34, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While on this voyage, Colt made a wooden model of a pepperbox revolver.": This will be confusing for some readers, since you're saying he came up with the idea of a revolver on this trip, but also made a model of a revolver that already existed. (Understood that you're talking about a different kind of revolver, but many readers won't know this.) Not sure how to resolve this. - Dank (push to talk) 16:06, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I hope I clarified while keeping it simple, outside of wiki I write for a mainstream news source and for the firearms and cutlery magazines. I find if I go too simple for the gun magazines, the readers don't like it; whereas if I don't give enough detail in my msm piece about guns, how they work, klaws, etc..those readers don't know what I am talking about! Colt's pepperbox had a unique mainspring which I explained in the article, then later went on to say after the "Dr Coult lectures" that he abandoned the multiple barrel idea of the pepperbox.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When Colt returned to the United States in 1832": Had he been out of the country, or just at sea? - Dank (push to talk) 16:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Corvo took him to India and back, I believe that is why he added the "of Calcutta" to his Nitrous Oxide tour.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was during this time": During which time, when he was talking about cholera or when he was lecturing? - Dank (push to talk) 16:22, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He was a 19-year-old kid lecturing about nitrous and was so convincing in his "lectures" that they thought he was a real doctor who had studied medicine, so when the cholera broke out they turned to him for advice.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:35, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Be consistent in how multi-author sources are notated
  • FN 26: formatting
  • Foster-Harris or Forster-Harris? Schecter or Schechter? Check spelling for consistency
  • Some of your Bibliography entries are missing dates
  • Use a consistent date format
  • Look for minor inconsistencies like doubled periods
  • FN 54-55: punctuation
  • FN 55: date
  • FN 57: publisher, page?
  • Be consistent in whether you provide publisher locations for books, and if so what information is included
  • No citations to Bern, Edmund, Grant, Kelner
  • See also should go before references
  • Can you justify the use of Kelner wrt WP:SCHOLARSHIP
  • Don't need page number in Rohan bibliography entry. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:35, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I believe I have addressed them all.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 01:34, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good job so far. There are still a few inconsistencies. For example, compare FNs 21 and 22 - notice the punctuation change? Where in Ohio was Carey published? Where was Klepper published? Doubled period in FN 44, hyphen in FN 10, etc. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:16, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well slap me twice and call me a bastard! Looks like that was the change in templates from cite book to citation; I never knew that! I fixed the locations, one was a spelling error in the parameter for the template the other an oversight. I think I fixed the hyphen issue, but I'll check for more. I used to have a character map with the dash but it looks like it's gone now.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 05:08, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
More: why include database name in FN 11 but not 13? Why is there a location in FN 53 but not 47? Why are Roe and Hounshell using the {{citation}} template when other sources use {{cite book}}? Why does Hounshell include "USA" when other US-based sources do not? Why does Lehto's middle initial warrant a period when his coauthor's does not? Where was Lendler published? Why does Dickens include publisher and location when other journal articles do not? Why is Roe's reprint state abbreviated when other states are not? Why are Serven's initials spaced when others are unspaced? Where was Tucker published? Why are Further reading states abbreviated when citation states are not? How many sourcing questions could a woodchuck ask if it wasn't so busy chucking wood? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll fix these, short answer: patent refs (11 and 13)were put in by some schizo 3 years and 4 months ago, well I don't know if he is a schizo, but he used 2 different ways of putting the same type of ref in. Hounshell is an old ref that is in a template somewhere and at least 3 articles link to that...maybe I'll ditch it, I guess if we're quibbling over the spacings of letters and periods after initials in middle names that I'm not half the retard or a "hack writer", like the rumors suggest. I've never seen a woodchuck actually chuck wood, nor have I seen a rock chucker actually chuck rocks. :P --Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 06:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed, stupid human tricks.

Comments

  • Maybe it's just my ignorance, but "Like most Democrats of his time, he did not see slavery as a moral issue" seems to need a citation.
  • "Colt was the first American manufacturer to use art as a marketing tool." Seems overly broad to me and is certainly in need of a citation, especially considering that you're using 'art' in the sense of decoration on goods. Seems to me that this could include practices back to when people started bartering.
  • It was more than that, certainly in the presentation type guns, but art in this sense means hiring George Catlin to specifically produce artworks that prominently featured his guns in the hands of big game hunters and Western heroes. Much like companies paying film makers for product placement today.
  • "The first industrialist to make successful use of the assembly line" seems in need of citation.
  • It is cited in the article, if you want me to cite items in the lede section, I'll do it, but most FAC reviewers tell me not to do that, unless something changed since my last FAC.
  • No offense intended, but overall comes across as a bit POV admiring. None the less a solid job. Doug (talk) 22:29, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • None taken, I don't particularly agree with that assessment as in many ways Colt was a prick. Maybe I just suck at writing and the good parts outshine the bad.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:47, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Noleander

  • Wording: "Having some money saved and keeping ...". Starting with "having ..." seems slangy to me.
  • Wording: "Colt's manufacturing methods, directed at beating his competition,....". I would think that every aspect of his business is aimed at besting the competition; so that "directed at .." seems to be superflous. Maybe better to say something like "Striving to gain a competitive edge, Colt adopted/invented new manufacturing techniques ..."
  • Wording: " Colt set out to establish a factory in Europe and chose London." Probably better to explicitly finish with "... as the location of .."
  • Wording: "The factory's machines mass-produced its parts that were completely ..." Eliminating the "its" may read better.
  • Wording: "Samuel Colt died from gout" . My ears would prefer "of gout" but that may be just me.
  • Confusing: "Colt historian William Edwards wrote that Samuel Colt had married Caroline Henshaw ...". I cannot make heads or tails of what is being said. The child was Samuels, and there was a cover-up marriage to John? The first sentence of this paragr should plainly state the controversy ... subsequent sentences should give background/detail.
  • Cite needed: "Colt was the first American manufacturer to use art as a marketing tool when he hired Catlin to prominently display Colt firearms in his paintings. ". That sounds hard to believe, so you should include the name of the source that makes that assertion in the prose (per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV ). E.g. "Historian Joe Smith contends that Colt was the first ...".
  • Background needed: "Apart from gifts and bribes, Colt employed an effective marketing ..." The issue of bribes appears very abruptly here. They need to be identified and explained before this sentence. There is a mention of bribes far above re patent extensions; but that is not applicable to this marketing context.
  • Reword: "Colt felt that bad press was just as important as long as his name and his revolvers received mention. " "as long as" is slangy here. Perhaps better would be "Colt did not object to poor press coverage, provided that his revolvers were mentioned."
  • Legacy section: contains sentence: "Before his death, each barrel was stamped: "Address Col. Samuel Colt, New York, US America", or a variation using a London address. Colt did this as New York and London were major cosmopolitan cities and he retained an office in New York at 155 Broadway where he based his salesmen.". Two issues (1) this seems to be unrelated to Legacy: move into an earlier section; and (2) The phrase "Before his death,.." implies the barrels were changed after his death. To what?
  • Legacy again: Much of the material in the Legacy section is related to things during his life. Such as "Apart from gifts and bribes, Colt employed an effective marketing program which comprised sales promotion, publicity, product sampling, and public relations ..." and "When he opened the London armory he posted a 14 foot sign ...". Move all that material to an earlier section.

End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 19:52, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


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