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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/SS Choctaw/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 19 December 2021 [1].

SS Choctaw edit

Nominator(s): GreatLakesShips (talk) 19:50, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the Great Lakes freighter SS Choctaw. I brought the article to GA status in December 2020. Ever since then, it has been copy edited by Baffle gab1978 and has undergone and a peer review. The original review was closed to a lack of input. GreatLakesShips (talk) 19:50, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@WP:FAC coordinators: Should this be added to the urgents list? It already failed the first time due to lack of reviewers and now the second nom is two weeks in with just an IR and my review. NoahTalk 13:13, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

@Buidhe: I don't know the exact publication of the Wahcondah image, however, it is know that the publishing company went out of business in about 1920. I have added the exact publication date on the other two images. GreatLakesShips (talk) 08:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK, the licensing looks fine. (t · c) buidhe 09:40, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have moved the infobox to the wreck section. GreatLakesShips (talk) 09:37, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hurricane Noah edit

  • Consider adding {{snd}} between the year ranges in the infobox for operators instead of the –.
  • On her regular route between Detroit, Escanaba, Marquette, Michigan and Cleveland, Ohio, she carried iron ore downbound, and coal upbound. It isn't inherently clear that that the first two are also in Michigan. Personally speaking, I had no clue where Escanaba was.
  • Link Lake Huron in the lead.
  • Multiple duplicate links in the lead and body.
  • East of Presque Isle Light the freighter was rammed by the downbound Canadian canaller Wahcondah I believe a comma is needed after Presque Isle Light.
  • She was discovered resting in about 300 feet (91 m) of water, Should it be resting under? Also, I would abbreviate feet to ft.
  • shipyards around the lakes began construction iron ships on a relatively large scale Missing a couple of words here.
  • As the railways were unable to keep up with the rapid production of iron ore, [...] , was transported by bulk freighters. Missing a noun/pronoun on the second half.
  • The quantity of iron ore mined from Am I mistaken or is ore measured by volume rather than quantity?
  • Her hull was 266.9 feet (81.4 m) in length with a 38.1-foot (11.6 m) beam,[13] and had a 17.9-foot-deep (5.5 m) hold and water bottom. Feet and foot can be abbreviated.
  • 16-foot (4.9 m) draught same here... check for others.
  • Her regular route was between Detroit, Escanaba, Marquette, Michigan and Cleveland, Ohio. Same thing as the comment about this in the lead.
  • Choctaw was travelling on Lake St. Clair when one of cylinder heads exploded, Missing a word.
  • I suggest incorporating dates into the middle of sentences rather than having them all listed out front as it makes the prose flow choppy.
  • Link Pointe aux Pins
  • after being lifted by heavy seas I would use a word other than seas since this is a lake.
  • Choctaw, under the command of Captain Charles A. Fox, was upbound from Cleveland, Ohio, with a cargo of coal and was bound for Marquette, Michigan This sentence seems a bit clunky.
  • For the times you are mentioning (midnight, 5:30 a.m), which timezone is being referenced?
  • five–six miles (8.0–9.7 km) Abbreviate miles. Check for others.
  • alleging that she was travelling at an excessive for the condition Missing a word.
  • hi-definition --> high definition.
  • The remains of Choctaw rest in about 300 feet (91 m) of cold, fresh water Probably should be "under" instead of about.
That should be it. Would you consider reviewing my article? NoahTalk 03:08, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Hurricane Noah: Thank you for the suggestions. GreatLakesShips (talk) 14:20, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@GreatLakesShips: No problem. Quite frankly I am appalled that nobody commented on this sooner. I have experienced the same fate as you did for one of my FACs. I had no substantial reviews and it was archived. Hopefully, we can get some more people here so this can get going. NoahTalk 15:54, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Buidhe: All except the feet → ft abbreviations, which are not present in any FA ship articles I have seen. GreatLakesShips (talk) 10:28, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The only other thing I see is that it should be "under" instead of "in under". I trust you to make this last correction so I am going to support. I don't really feel like being here that much right now since my grandfather died yesterday. NoahTalk 22:38, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry to hear that. (t · c) buidhe 23:04, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for your loss. GreatLakesShips (talk) 23:49, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass edit

  • Link The Mining Journal
  • ISBN needed for Bowlus
  • Are you sure PortCities Southhampton is the original publisher for Demers 1915?
  • What's Marquette 365? Chrome won't let me access the website cause it says it ain't safe, and searching for "Marquette 365 com" brings up stuff for Marquette U's Microsoft Office 365 program and something about a Marquette community calendar that it looks like anyone can post on
  • "Government Printing Office (1903). "Annual Report of the Supervising Inspector-general Steamboat-inspection Service, Year ending June 30, 1903". Washington D.C.: Government Printing Office. p. 69. Retrieved May 7, 2020 – via Haithi Trust." - Government Printing Office is not the author. Also, hathitrust is spelled wrong
  • What makes Freshwater Press a high-quality publisher? Does Greenwood or Vanderlinden have good credentials
  • For a lot of the no-author ones, you tend to give the publisher for both the publisher and the author, it should only be listed for the publisher
  • "Stonehouse, Frederick (2006). Haunted Lake Michigan. Duluth, Minnesota: Lake Superior Port Cities. ISBN 978-0-942235-72-2." - looks like a weak source. Description sounds like the book can get kinda fruity at time, and it's published by a regional magazine that is actively soliciting articles from the general public, according to its web page
  • Thompson 2004 - don't need the page number in the long ref, since it's already in the short ref

Will do spot-checks once these are addressed. I reviewed this at GA, and the sourcing has come a long way since then. Hog Farm Talk 03:46, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: I have addressed some of them. I am not sure what I should do about the no-author sources. I haven't managed to find anything on Greene or Vanderlinden. However, Vanderlinden's co-author, John H. Bascom is the editor of The Scanner, a historical newsletter published by the Toronto Marine Historical Society. I hope that helps. GreatLakesShips (talk) 20:50, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For the no-author sources, just leave the parameter blank. If you're concerned about how to sfn target without an author, you can use the parameter |ref=CITEREF to set things up. For an example on how to do that, see Harris's Missouri Battery (1864)#General sources. Hog Farm Talk 20:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: Done. Should I also alphabeticize them? GreatLakesShips (talk) 21:15, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that would be preferable. Hog Farm Talk 22:00, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: Done. GreatLakesShips (talk) 06:07, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to do spot-checks tomorrow, before I go visit family for Thanksgiving in an area with dodgy internet. Hog Farm Talk 06:29, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just realized I never responded about Freshwater Press - Vanderlinden should be okay then, although I'd recommend replacing Greenwood - he's only used once, so it shouldn't be too hard. Hog Farm Talk 05:33, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spot checks at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/SS Choctaw/archive2. Hog Farm Talk 05:33, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: I have replaced Greenwood. GreatLakesShips (talk) 05:53, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: I have also archived the link noted on the talk page. GreatLakesShips (talk) 05:58, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

  • The link to canaller is not very helpful, since it redirects to a related term. Can we explain the word inline or with a footnote, or perhaps add an entry to Glossary of nautical terms and link to that?
  • Suggest linking the first appearance of both "long ton" and "short ton".
  • "Choctaw was one of only three semi-whaleback ships ever built; there was an identical sister ship named Andaste and a "near-sister" ship named Yuma": suggest moving this sentence to the end of the next paragraph, since that's where you talk about her design.
  • The yellow sonar image took me a while to interpret; I initially thought it was a relatively close-up image showing some projection from the ship's hull. The image file itself explains it better but I'm still not clear if this is a side-on view taken by an ROV of some kind or a surface sonar scan. Whatever the explanation is, could it be added to the caption or the article?
    That makes it clearer. Is there any reason not to rotate the image so that the up-down direction is vertical? I can do that for (and crop the image a bit) if you want. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:39, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you have access to newspapers.com? There are some more details in newspaper stories that you don't include -- the Buffalo Commercial, 7/14/15, page 9, has a longish story, as does the Port Huron Times Herald for 7/13/15. I can clip the relevant stories for you if you don't have access.
    I'll clip some of the stories and post links here when I'm done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:39, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see an ISBN on the source listing for Dwight Boyer's Ghost Ships of the Great Lakes, but at 1968 this is almost certainly too early for an ISBN. Are you citing a later reprint? If so I'd use the "orig" parameter to give the original printing date, and make the publication date the date of the edition you actually consulted.
  • You have "National Park Service (1) (2018), p. 4–5." as a citation; it should be "pp" not "p". I tried to fix this but apparently I don't understand the sfn referencing system so I had to undo my edit.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:00, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: I don't have access to newspapers.com. The rest of the points have been addressed. GreatLakesShips (talk) 17:08, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of replies above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:39, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some clippings: Buffalo Commercial, Port Huron Times Herald, Sheboygan Press, Detroit Free Press, Moline Dispatch, Waukegan News-Sun, Tulsa Democrat.

A couple of nice touches that you could add from these -- e.g. that the crew were originally reported drowned. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:52, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: I have added the newspaper references. I don't know what to do about the linking of short and long tons, and I have tried to rotate the image, but to me it looked weird, so I left it unchanged. GreatLakesShips (talk) 13:40, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The additions from the newspapers look good, with one exception: as far as I can see the Tulsa Democrat didn't report that the crew were drowned; instead it says "reports last night were that the Choctaw's crew had drowned", which just means that that was what the reporter had heard. It doesn't mean the Democrat actually printed that statement. I would make the efn note "Although no lives were lost in Choctaw's sinking, the crew were originally reported as drowned". I'll take a look at how to link those units and may try rotating the image myself to see what it looks like. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:50, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike Christie: Done. GreatLakesShips (talk) 13:55, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. Re the image, I've just uploaded a rotated/clipped version; I think that's easier to understand. What do you think? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:56, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It definitely looks better than what I attempted. GreatLakesShips (talk) 13:58, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The article looks good. GreatLakesShips, you may be interested in getting access to newspapers.com; you can get free access via WP:LIBRARY, if you think you could use newspaper sources for more articles. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:02, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from DanCherek edit

  • "Beginning in the mid-1840s, Canadian companies began importing iron vessels" – some redundancy here with "beginning" and "began"
  • The first time Andaste is mentioned, there is no context (and it is unlinked); it's not until later in the paragraph that it is linked and introduced as a sister ship
  • Should "tumble-home" be linked to tumblehome?
  • Clicking the Swayze (2001) link brings me to a 404 "page not found".
Added archived link.
  • I don't see "June 24" in the Bowling Green State University (2) (2010) reference, additional citation needed to supplement that?
This was contained in a reference I was advised to remove.
  • "She would carry iron ore while..." this sentence has "would carry" twice and "would fuel", I'd replace these with "carried" and "fueled". Same with "This would be the last time..." two paragraphs later, "This was the last time" is crisper
  • "upbound" is wikilinked four times in total (twice in the lead and twice in the body), is this intentional? "downbound" is wikilinked twice in the lead and once on the body. There are other duplicate links such as "Thunder Bay National Marine Sanctuary"
    Thanks for fixing these. Additiona duplicate links: Cleveland, Ohio is linked twice in the lead; Lake Superior is linked in both Background and Service history; Marquette, Michigan is linked twice in Service history; Presque Isle, Michigan is linked in both Final voyage and collision and Discovery
  • Why are three citations needed for the Fox block quote? It's reported in full in The Buffalo Commercial, for example.
  • "Choctaw's crew corroborated her owner's claims." it feels like this sentence should be moved to follow the first sentence in this paragraph, which is about Fox's claims (rather than Dineen's)
  • I don't think putting "the high-visibility nature of the monitor ship type predicated the lookout to be stationed at the pilothouse" and "it would be unlikely for him to communicate with the wheelsman 200 feet (61.0 m) feet away" in quotes is ideal because it makes it seem like these were the phrases actually used by Cleveland-Cliffs in court. That's what I had assumed until I clicked on the source to read more.
    Thanks for removing the quotation marks, though I had something else in mind (paraphrasing the sentences). Removing the quotes creates an attribution issue because the sentences are still taken from the source, so there are two options: (1) Paraphrase these two quotes in your own words, or (2) If the source is in the public domain or compatibly licensed (I haven't verified this), then you can add {{Source-attribution}} to the citation to indicate that the sentences have been copied from the source. DanCherek (talk) 06:56, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Choctaw was insured for $80,200" this sentence is missing two closing parentheses. Ref should go after the comma in this sentence
  • Where does National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (2) (2017) mention Stan Stock's 2003 search?
I have added a ref with the discovery date of the Kyle Spangler.
  • Rufus P. Ranney isn't mentioned in National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (2) (2011).
New refs added.
  • Don't think "Federal Government" needs caps
  • "settled by the head soon after the collision, but shortly before she disappeared she rolled to starboard and capsized, going down bottom side up" I don't see this exact quote in National Park Service (1) (2018) – I do see a similar quote that is contained in the previous Fox blockquote
Unnecessary sentence removed.

Great job with the article and I hope these comments are helpful. DanCherek (talk) 01:22, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@DanCherek: The issues have been addressed. GreatLakesShips (talk) 14:16, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
GreatLakesShips, just FYI, it's usually best to not strike out the points but let the reviewer strike them -- that way they can see what's outstanding and you can see what they think is still not fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:42, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks both. Most of my concerns have been addressed with two issues above. I think the article is in good shape and expect to support once they have been resolved. DanCherek (talk) 06:56, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@DanCherek: The overlinking has been sorted. I am fairly sure that this applies in the second case. GreatLakesShips (talk) 09:45, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Taking a closer look, I see that Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Resources advises that "Official National Register of Historic Places nomination documents [...] are provided by the Federal government but are often written by state or local government staff or by private consultants or other parties who have not transferred copyright. As such, they are generally not in the public domain, even though most U.S. Federal government works are. Unless they are prepared by Federal staff workers, the copyright is believed to be held by the author of the document." Is there a reason that this would be an exception? DanCherek (talk) 13:59, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I meant the source in that section, which is given as "United States Circuit Courts of Appeals 1921:117". GreatLakesShips (talk) 14:25, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The block quote in the document ("His absence from the [...] for making reports.") is from the court and in the public domain, but the wording of the sentence used in the article about the "high-visibility nature of the monitor ship" originates from whoever filled out the NRHP nomination; it's not presented as a quote from the court. I think the best thing to do here would be to paraphrase that single sentence. DanCherek (talk) 14:49, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@DanCherek: I've modified the sentence. GreatLakesShips (talk) 16:12, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
While this is not really sufficient for paraphrasing copyright text, I've gone ahead and revised the sentence further myself. Assuming you're okay with that, I'll support as my comments have been resolved. DanCherek (talk) 17:00, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@DanCherek: Thank you. GreatLakesShips (talk) 17:16, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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