Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Roy Kilner/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:47, 30 September 2010 [1].

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Roy Kilner

Roy Kilner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Roy Kilner/archive1

Nominator(s): Sarastro1 (talk) 22:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

A fairly obscure cricketer. Kilner played around the time of World War I, losing his best friend and being injured in the Somme. He mainly played for Yorkshire in the 1920s but declined fairly quickly after 1924, having played Test matches. He died while young. He was a very popular player and something of a joker but is almost forgotten now. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Comments Support by Aaroncrick:

• "In 1904, aged 14, Kilner first played for the Mitchell Main first team, playing two games without success. Although playing regularly from the 1905 season..."—Play/played gets repetitive; perhaps need to tweak the structure of the sentences.
• " He scored 0 and 14 and did not bowl, and in a further six matches for Yorkshire that season, his highest score was 18 runs, his average with the bat was just 6.66 in ten innings and he did not take any wickets."—Used and twice in the sentence. Instead, you could use a full stop or semi-colon after bowl.
• "...going on to take twelve wickets for 75 runs in the second match."—Why it twelve spelt out? Also, I didn't think we mixed up a sentence with spelling out the word and just using the number itself. Maybe ask YellowMonkey.

First two done. For bowling figures, I always tend to spell out the number of wickets as that tends to be the convention when it isn't a stats list (well, in Wisden anyway), but I will change to figures if it is preferred. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• "With the bat, he suffered a slight decline: he did not score a hundred for the first time since 1912,[47] but still scored 1,401 runs at an average of 34.17 and including nine scores over fifty."—I know he didn't score a century, but I wanted say it was a slight decline. He scored more runs than in previous seasons, and averaged higher. He also placed third in the Yorkshire batting averages, higher than in previous seasons.

A little harsh I suppose! Took out decline. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• "However, after Emmott Robinson broke through..."—Jargon?

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• "He was effective on pitches which favoured his style of bowling, but not on the flatter pitches prevalent in the dry summer of 1925."—Without reading any further, what was his style of bowling?

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• "...when 71,000 people attended his benefit match against Middlesex."—How many days did the match go for?

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• "In the winter of 1925–26, Kilner was selected for the M.C.C. tour of West Indies..."—We normally add the before West Indies.

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• "...and achieved a level of consistency..."—achieved at a level of consistency?

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• "...but his bowling average of 22.52 was the highest he had achieved since 1920, before he became a regular bowler.—Were the highest...?

I would have thought was. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• "...48 year-old Wilfred Rhodes."—Add another hypen as you did earlier.

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• "In the Kilner's final County Championship match, he scored 91 not out and took eight wickets in the match..."—Don't need to use the last match.

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• "In terms of bowling, Kilner was an effective performer on rain affected pitch."—Doesn't read right.

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• On a few more occasions you could say where Yorkshire finished on the ladder.

Added comment for each season. Too much? --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh no, that's very good, thanks. Aaroncrick ^TALK 01:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Aaroncrick ^TALK 22:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

All comments addressed I think. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 22:46, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
• image review No images to check Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:52, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
• Comment: There's a reference error mid-article that needs immediate fixing. Brianboulton (talk) 00:14, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Fixed (there were two such problems, actually). Ucucha 00:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
• Comments looks good. CE when necessary
  • About his brothers I think it's easier to be explicit right at the start. At the moment it says he was the second son out of 11 kids, then later it says he has brothers, so there must be at least 3 boys. Later it names two other brothers so I think it's better to give them in order at the start if possible, and which order he was overall, including the grils, if possible
    • Don't know any of this. The main source only names those mentioned here and they aren't mentioned elsewhere. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Do we know if the church was Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian etc?
    • The Parish Church suggests Anglican but no confirmation available. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Does one have to be a miner to join the mining team? Or can one be a stakeholder, or a descendant of one of the two? Or just anyone?
    • Speculating, but I'd imagine anyone as his father owned a pub. But maybe his brothers worked in the mine, so I don't know... --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Do we know if MM were in the highest competition in Yorkshire or just some random one. Was Harrogate an affiliate/sub-club of YCCC and was it at a higher level competition than MM thus YCCC sending him there?
    • Not an affiliate as such, but Yorkshire tended to let local clubs use their young players as they had no "nursery" team, and so they farmed them out. Added something to explain it. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • "On the first morning, Kilner was used as the sixth bowler and proved successful enough to keep bowling;" Needs to rm bowling rpt, although I can't think of anything decent atm
    • Simply changed to "proved successful". --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • "Kilner did not play for the Yorkshire second team after 1912 " So this implies that he was sometimes dropped in 1912 but after that he was never dropped? If so it should be said explicitly; more convenient for the reader as well
    • Clarified. Wasn't really dropped. As it says, he played for the 2nd XI before being called up for the county. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Some things seem underlinked. bowling av, partnership, fours,
    • Linked bowling average in main article and partnership, but fours already linked on first mention. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • I think we should note what division PNE were in, that should be easy.
    • Really?? :) There was no league in 1918, so I'm not sure if he was just playing in friendlies. PNE were in first division in 1919, but not easy to find a reliable reference. If it is really important, I can add a newspaper ref showing them in div 1. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Put in what I found and got ref from Times. Maybe too complicated and not entirely relevant, but not sure. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

• • Just wondering, did the 2-day CC matches get FC status as well?
    • Yes, all matches first-class. The hours of play were extended to fit it all in, and the players hated it as they were playing three matches in a week with lots of travelling. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • In the early Tests v RSA, if there is no news explaining about selection changes could you just compare scorecards to see what the team changes were and note what the selectors did? Did they [apparently] decide his bowling wasn't useful and replace him with another pure batsman? Noting his batting posn might be useful, because if you score 59 in the top 6 you don't normally get dropped, although if you were No 8 and bowled rubbish you would get dropped even if you made a 80 or even 100 (or 201* per Gillespie) :) [Kilner's career stats show that he was good enough to be a frontline bowler so was that the std against which they assessed him?
    • Actually, a discussion of his general batting position/vicinity seems to be missing. Vinoo Mankad was an opening batsman after all YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
      • Included who replaced him in the Tests of 1924. Also, included batting posn for 1924, more to follow on that. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Added a couple of sentences on his batting position. Found a general ref, or I'd have been referring to a lot of scorecards! --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

• • "He was selected for the third Test, when a series of injuries for England left him with a heavy workload" Did he get recalled because the others did badly or got injured, or a team restructure, or does this mean he got in then the others broke down mid match and he had to bowl a disproportionate quota?
    • The later sentences imply that teammates broke down mid match then. So was his recall due to a pre-match injury or some guy's form slump, or him doing well in the tour matches?
      • OK. Clarified workload comment and added sentence about selection - the bowlers were changed around, presumably after their pasting at the start of the series. Naturally, none of the sources offer even a suggestion as to what was going on. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Lord's 1926 was the 2nd Test? I think it's good to note the order, just in case his good performance was the last Test and he was dropped immediately, lol
    • Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

• Did he coach the Maharaja personally (only), or also his teammates. "coached for" means he might have been employed by club owner etc to teach the players. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:22, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Not sure in the case of Kilner, but usually the players would coach and/or play for the Maharajas team. So, not sure as the source is ambiguous(surprise!). --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

• Have to ask for his specific scores in the Test trial, and the PvG matches as these had the highest density of talent and were given a lot more weight in selecting the Test team, especiall the Test trial. How many wickets did he pile up in the run up to his debut Test

Done for most of the PvG matches, but stuck to ones at Lords which were the "proper" ones: the rest were a mixture of sides which would take too long to explain in this article. Added some other stats too. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

• For the Aus tour, it says he did well in nonFC, implying that he did badly in the FC warmups. This should be expanded on ( stats again :() to explain how he fell out of favor after the WA century I guess.

More stats added! :) Actually, his form was dreadful! --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

• More generally, Tony might haul you over for "that" and the usage of the long form of "at a bowlnig/batting average" and "took six wickets for 45 runs" can be a disadvantage when you need to use batting/bowling/wickets again in the same vicinity YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Removed many "that"s and tried to vary descriptions of his average and bowling figures. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Looks good YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 00:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Sources comment: All sources look OK, no outstanding issues. Brianboulton (talk) 15:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Comments Support –

• Yorkshire regular: "In his years at there...". Don't think "at" adds anything; it only would if the club name was given.
• Tour of Australia: "taking took ten for 66 in the match". Remome "took" since it throws the sentence off.
• Decline as a bowler: Remove second word of "In the Kilner's final County Championship match". Giants2008 (27 and counting) 18:42, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. All done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:07, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

• Comment, leaning to support. Just a few things:
• "Annie Campbelljohn—the daughter of James Camplejohn" - I assume the different spellings is deliberate?
• "The Maharaja of Patiala again invited Kilner to coach in India in the winter of 1927–28" yet two sentences later he appears to be playing cricket, not coaching. There is a continuity and clarity problem here.
• "When he was chosen as a Cricketer of the Year, Wisden remarked that he was devoted to the game..." Why just this late, passing mention of something that seems to me to be a big deal. What year was he chosen? Why? Where was it published? Should being Cricketer of the Year be mentioned in the lead? hamiltonstone (talk) 23:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Comment:

• Throughout the article you use (for example) "138 for four", "211 for five". Personally I'd prefer to see it written more numerically, "138 for 4", "211 for 5". But I have no objection to it remaining as it is!

Other than that I have no issues with the article, and given it is such a minor point anyway, have my

• Support, nice article. Harrias ^talk 15:19, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.