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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Robert Hues/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [1].

Robert Hues edit

Nominator(s): — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 07:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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This article was previously nominated but not promoted because insufficient editors reviewed the article. All the concerns raised by editors who provided suggestions have been addressed. I am therefore renominating the article in the hope that it will receive more reviews this time. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 07:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question, seeing as this is a biographical article, why is the main picture the title page of one of the subjects works, and not a picture of the person itself?--Otterathome (talk) 12:13, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: No portrait has been located yet, and since this is a 16th-century personage it seems rather unlikely that one will turn up. Perhaps there is a likeness in Christ Church Cathedral or in some other church? — JackLee, 18:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review (see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Robert Hues/archive1). There are no new images at this time. Awadewit (talk) 14:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It would be great if someone in Oxford could take a photograph of Hues' memorial brass in Christ Church Cathedral. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 08:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I am leaning towards support, but I have some questions first:

  • An anonymous 17th-century manuscript states that Hues circumnavigated the world with Cavendish between 1586 and 1588 "purposely for taking the true Latitude of places" - This is actually sourced to the manuscript - is this OR? Has anyone published this connection before?
    • Comment: It is the ODNB, which is referenced at the end of the paragraph (footnote 2). — JackLee, 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • he may have been the "NH" who wrote a brief account of the voyage that was published by Hakluyt in his 1589 work The Principall Navigations, Voiages, and Discoveries of the English Nation - This is sourced to the 1589 work itself - is this OR? Has anyone published this connection before?
    • Comment: Ditto. — JackLee, 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could we get a translation of the Latin inscription in the "Later life" section?
    • Comment: I tried leaving a message at "la:Vicipaedia:Taberna" previously, but there were no takers. Have left another one. — JackLee, 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed: Some editors have provided assistance, so there is now a translation. Further tweaking by Latin-literate editors is welcome. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 06:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it necessary to list each and every printing of the Tractatus in this article?
    • Comment: Doesn't this shed interesting light on the popularity of the work in the 16th and 17th centuries? — JackLee, 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • As a scholar I love this listing, but I'm wondering about its appropriateness in a general encyclopedia. Awadewit (talk) 01:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • :-D Well, let's see whether any other reviewers have an opinion on this. — JackLee, 04:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why were the sources listed in the "Further reading" not used for the article?
    • Comment: Because I thought the existing references were sufficient. — JackLee, 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm asking since there are so few used - do the "Further reading" sources have more information? Awadewit (talk) 01:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm not sure. I came across them while reading the references that were used in the article, and thought they would be useful if listed in the "Further reading" section. I'd have to look them up (if they are available where I live). — JackLee, 04:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Since there are so few sources used in the article, it seems like looking them up would be a good idea. Will you have a chance in the next week or so? Awadewit (talk) 01:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • I've checked the items in the "Further reading" list. Here in Singapore, I only have access to four of them: Notes and Queries, Renaissance Quarterly, Transactions of the Royal Historical Society and Atomism in England from Hariot to Newton. Notes and Queries is not useful for incorporating into the article, but Renaissance Quarterly (which I accessed through JSTOR) is, and I've already done so. I will have to access the other two in print. Other editors with access to the remaining items will have to help determine if they contain useful information. I hope this is not a deal-breaker. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 15:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • I am going to the library myself today and I'll see what I have access to. Thanks so much for doing this! Awadewit (talk) 15:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                • See my notes at Talk:Robert Hues#Library trip. Awadewit (talk) 05:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Have read chs. 2–4 of Atomism in England and added some information to the article. I also found a useful journal article online which clarifies the controversy over whether Harriot, Hues and Warner were Northumberland's "Three Magi". I think that's it for now. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 08:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for so carefully assembling this article! The details in the footnotes were exceptional. I really appreciated those. Awadewit (talk) 14:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome, and thanks for taking the time to review the article. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am now supporting this article. Awadewit (talk) 12:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:24, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note I've left a note for Laser brain since he reviewed this article last time it was up for FAC. Awadewit (talk) 15:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - engaging, well-written and particularly well-researched, in my view this important contribution satisfies the criteria. Graham Colm Talk 12:42, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leaning support, my comments:
    • The first paragraph of the lead doesn't feel... leadish, more like a laundry list of movements of the subject. There's a lot of repetitious structure (Hues did this, Hues did that) that might be contributing to it. As it stands, it doesn't make me want to read on. Try changing the syntax and slimming down to just the highlights.
    • "During the voyage, while in the South Atlantic Hues made astronomical observations, and also observed the variation of the compass there and at the Equator. " Not sure if that's grammatically incorrect, but I'll be damned if it isn't awkward-sounding.
    • Reading on there's a continuing appearance of some rather strange wording, such as "At the age of 18 years, in 1571, he entered"... generally it would be better to preface with the date, i.e. "In 1571, at the age of 18 years..." Another example, "Following Grey's death, in 1616".
    • "At Oxford, a servitor was an undergraduate student who worked as a servant for fellows of the University in exchange for free accommodation and some meals, and exemption from paying fees for lectures." This comes off as extraneous that breaks the nice flow you've got. It's certainly interesting info that's germane, but it's not really proper inline; perhaps consider making an annotations section for content like this?
    • "Hues returned to England with Davis in 1593. During the voyage, while in the South Atlantic he made astronomical observations of the Southern Cross and other stars of the Southern Hemisphere, and also observed the variation of the compass there and at the Equator.[14] After reaching home, Hues published his discoveries in the work..." More awkward placement. The "during the voyage" sentence should come before the mention of his return. Also, with the "unfortunately" and the death of Cavendish right before, it casts some doubt as to whether they actually completed the circumnavigation or not. Please clarify for us unknowledgeable folks. :)
    • "The book was written to explain the use of the terrestrial and celestial globes that had been made and published by Emery Molyneux in late 1592 or early 1593,[16] and apparently to encourage English sailors to use practical astronomical navigation,[2] although Lesley Cormack has observed that the fact the book was written in Latin suggests that it was aimed at scholarly readers on the Continent." scratch the "and" from "and apparently", makes it sound more joined, although the phrasing sounds like Molyneux published it to encourage the English, not Hues.
    • Some people or phrases that, in addition to their wikilink, should probably have some small explanation of what they are: rhumb lines, John Davis
    • "and were usually called the Earl of Northumberland's THREE MAGI" -> any reason for the small caps here, rather than quotes?
      • Comment: Thanks for taking time to review the article. Yes, the words were in small caps in the source. Am leaving for an overseas trip tomorrow – will try to look into some of your comments next week. — JackLee, 15:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Hues, who did not marry, died on 24 May 1632 in Stone House, St. Aldate's (opposite the Blue Boar in central Oxford),[35] which was the house of John Smith, M.A., the son of J. Smith, a cook at Christ Church.[14]" Could you cast aside some of these commas and make multiple straightforward sentences? --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 00:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • "At Oxford, a servitor was an undergraduate student..." What do you think about perhaps moving this into a footnote that would appear right after "servitor"?
    • "He gave advice to the dramatist and poet..." Perhaps "He would later give advice..." or "He would apply his knowledge of Greek..." and then "George Chapman for his _insert year_ English" just to make the timeline a bit clearer.
    • "According to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, there is unsubstantiated evidence" Well, ODNB articles list their sources, so this theory probably originated somewhere else, not the ODNB. :) Care to do a little more digging? (What evidence/why unsubstantiated?)
    • "an undated source " Could we be a bit more explicit here on what this means (either in text or as a footnote)?
    • "Unfortunately, Cavendish died " One of those words to avoid; in any case, deaths are always unfortunate. :) Perhaps be a bit clearer here instead ("Cavendish's death cut short the voyage" or similar...that is the case right?).
    • What's the reason for the format of "THREE MAGI"?
      • Comment: Thanks for taking time to review the article. The words were in small caps in the source. Am leaving for an overseas trip tomorrow – will try to look into some of your comments next week. — JackLee, 15:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "allied subjects " I'm unfamiliar with what this means.
    • I noticed that some of your sentences that are based on the ODNB article skirt a bit closely to the original wording. Please double check these and recast if necessary. This is probably the only thing that would prevent me from supporting.
    • I see now that I'm just echoing David on some of my points...great minds, etc., etc.? :)
    • Good work. BuddingJournalist 07:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and comments A nice article, just a couple of quibbles
    • In the lead, there are a couple of sentences where beginning with the date makes it a bit clunky. To me at least, Between 1586 and 1588, Hues travelled with Thomas Cavendish on a circumnavigation of the globe, reads better as Hues travelled with Thomas Cavendish on a circumnavigation of the globe between 1586 and 1588 I note that this contradicts an earlier comment
    • I also don’t like the list of printing dates in the lead.
    • There is some unnecessary linking, Does "£" really need a link, and I wouldn’t have linked Oxford either
    • I note your reason for the THREE MAGI capitalisation, but I'm not fully convinced that the original style should be kept

None of the above are big deals jimfbleak (talk) 06:27, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to review the article. I am currently in Beijing, and have realized it may be difficult for me to have regular Internet access, so I will look into all the above points when I return to Singapore by Saturday, 6 June. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 12:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prose looks ok. Some of the paragraphs are dauntiingly large. Tony (talk) 14:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who did the translation from Latin in "Later life"? Can it be sourced? "... all kinds of ... "  ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: I did, based on information provided by another editor (see the talk page). Thus, it can't be sourced at the moment. By the way, I'm back from Beijing, so I will try and work on the article over the weekend. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 19:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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