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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ring ouzel/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 April 2021 [1].

Ring ouzel edit

Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:33, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This, the fourth thrush article I've brought to FAC, is a bit shorter than its predecessors. As one of the earlier migrants, it's a sign that spring is on the way, but its wild mountain breeding habitat means that the ring ouzel has failed to acquire the cultural and literary associations of its lowland cousins. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:33, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

buidhe, an ip editor has kindly switched some of the images and added a sound file. There appear to be no significantly better images of the Alpine or Caucasian sunbspecies, so we are stuck with those Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:19, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. (t · c) buidhe 14:22, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from HumanxAnthro edit

Oppose. As someone who isn't an animal expert, I can't speak of how reliable the animal literature cited here is or how complete this article. However, what makes me lean oppose is the prose problems starting in the lead.

  • Animal jargon such as "breast band," "pale crescent," "northernmost part of its range" is either not linked or not explained for the casual reader to understand.
  • HumanxAnthro I'm not clear which of the six words above (excluding "of" and "its", and presumably "part") you consider not to be standard English. To me, linking common words like "pale" and "crescent" seems to be overlinking. Do I really need to say where the breast is, or what a crescent looks like? I've inserted "geographical" before "range" thoughJimfbleak - talk to me? 12:08, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with HA, I'm totally lost as to what does it mean for a bird to have a pale crescent? What is a breast band on a bird? This needs de-jargoning. (t · c) buidhe 13:59, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've rejigged, including linking crescent and breast, although I suspect that someone who doesn't know where the breast of a bird is might find the link unhelpfulJimfbleak - talk to me? 11:45, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps add links to the bird glossary? FunkMonk (talk) 17:15, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, the sentence "Its habitat is open uplands with some trees or shrubs including heather, conifers, beech, Rhododendron hirsutum or juniper" sounds awkward. At least the types of places are linked, but is there more terminology I'm not understanding?
  • Again, I wouldn't think "habitat" was technical, but I've linked it and inserted an "often" Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:08, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's not what I'm referring. I'm talking about how the structure of the sentence. What does it mean for a habitat to be open uplands? Are you trying to say they're located in the mountains? If, as someone who is not versed in animal terminology, is confused by the sentence, that means it is not comprehensible to other casual readers wanting to learn more about the subject. 👨x🐱 (talk) 17:03, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the first lead's para, why are some continents not linked yet North Africa is? Also, we're hastily introduced into "The 3–6 eggs," are these the typical amount of eggs that hatch from these birds?
  • At FAC we don't link countries or continents, but we do link regions, since they are less obvious. I've inserted typical clutch and tweaked a bit Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:08, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "strawberry,cherry hawthorn," needs a space between them
  • "The ring ouzel has an extensive range and a large population," Extensive range in what? Subspecies?
  • I just noticed most of the second paragraph spoils a majority of the "Diet section." The lead is meant to be a simple summary of most of the article's sections, not giving extremely unfair weight to one section or another.
  • The long description sentences in "Subspecies" are difficult to read comfortably, as they feel random in structure. I also see zero need to bullet-point list only three items.
  • Removed bullet points in the "Subspecies" section and made sentences shorter. I've done the same in the next section too, although you haven't suggested that Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:08, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Voice" has more jargon not linked or explained.
  • "(5,900–7,200 ft)1800–2200|m}}" I think this is an imcompletely-programmed template.

The article needs a copyedit. 👨x🐱 (talk) 18:08, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • "In the Alps, breeding densities can reach 60–80 pairs/km², but are generally much lower with 37 pairs/km² in Haute-Savoie, 22 pairs/km² in the Jura Mountains, and 8 pairs/km² in more open habitats in Britain" Use convert template, rather than a note (it may be necessary to rephrase, i.e. "the density of pairs can reach 60–80 per km2 ..." (t · c) buidhe 07:10, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • buidhe, thanks for your tweaks to the text. I've added the population estimate date and followed your suggestion for the the convert template the density of breeding pairs can reach... Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:39, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi HumanxAnthro, have the changes to date been sufficient to effect your oppose? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:52, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hello, there, and great work on the prose changes. I just noticed "genus" isn't linked or described, but otherwise it's going towards the right direction in regards of that. I reason I can't make a definitive Support or Oppose comment here is because I am no bird expert, plus I have some other things on my plate and can't determine how fully researched this article is since I'm not to researching sources about animals. I can notice when something is understandable or not, however, and the article is getting better on that regard. 👨x🐱 (talk) 12:09, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Aa77zz edit

  • spell out IUCN in lead

Taxonomy

  • About 65 species of medium to large thrushes are in the genus Turdus - there are now 85 species in the genus Turdus (see IOC)
  • the ring ouzel is descended from thrush populations that had colonised the Caribbean islands from Africa, and subsequently reached Europe from there. This is probably not the case. A large molecular phylogenetic study (using ultra-conserved elements) by Batista et al was published in 2020. The results are compatible with a simpler model in which thrushes only crossed the Atlantic once.
  • The reference: Batista, Romina; Olsson, Urban; Andermann, Tobias; Aleixo, Alexandre; Ribas, Camila Cherem; Antonelli, Alexandre (2020). "Phylogenomics and biogeography of the world's thrushes (Aves, Turdus): new evidence for a more parsimonious evolutionary history". Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences. 287 (1919): 20192400. doi:10.1098/rspb.2019.2400.
The results of this study are complicated - and unsatisfactory. Some of the importatnt nodes in the phylogeny are poorly supported which makes the interpretation difficult. I've looked at the supplementary material but I don't understand enough to make any judgment. Clearly more DNA sequence data are required before a solid phylogeny can be calculated. - Aa77zz (talk) 10:28, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've rewritten and simplified taxonomy in the light of Batista Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:55, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A 2007 mitochondrial cytochrome b gene analysis - out of date?
  • Details of the study suggests that the ring ouzel ... - Batista et al confirm that the ring ouzel is sister to a clade containing the closely related dusky and Naumann's thrushes.

Breeding

  • Territories may be strung out along streams, 160–200 metres (520–660 ft) and ranges may overlap - words missing? "Territories may be strung out along streams, 160–200 metres (520–660 ft) apart and the ranges may overlap."
  • and built on the ground or in a small tree or scrub, at an average height of 3.5 metres (11 ft). - perhaps worth mentioning that the nest is very rarely in a tree in the west of the range (see Clement and Hathway p.349). Flegg and Glue, 1975 here of 297 sites in BTO study only 2% were in trees. Not the case elsewhere (not recommending that you use the ref but see here).
  • Mention that the nest is built by the female. See Clement and Hathway p.349 and BWP/Cramp (vol 5 published 1988) p. 947
  • Incubation is by both parents - as per BTO source - but probably better to state "mostly by the female". BWP p. 947 has either "mostly by female" or "by female only". p 943 has "Both sexes recorded brooding and caring for young but female usually performs most." p 944 has "When female off nest, male often sat on rim but did not incubate" Clement and Hathway p. 349 have "mostly by the female but also apparently sometimes by the male".
  • average lifespan is two years, although nine years has been recorded. - I cannot see this in the cited source - hbw/bow - but the numbers are on the BTO page.
  • Appears to be philopatric - birds return to very near the birth location to breed - but I cannot see this explicitly stated in the sources. (In one study by Sim et al used coloured rings and recorded breeding attempts in consecutive years - see here)

References

  • Ref 16: Bacht et al 2013 - needs doi-access=free
  • Ref 23: Sim et al 2013 - a subscription is needed for the url provided. (but pdf is available from researchgate)

More later - Aa77zz (talk) 12:35, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Aa77zz I think it's the other way around, the url goes to the pdf, and the doi, taken from the researchgate page, goes to the abstract. I don't know how to fix it, we are required to give the doi, and sooner or later someone will remove the url on the basis that we don't need both Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:42, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, Buidhe has removed the urls as a copyright violation, which makes sense Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:16, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aa77zz, thanks for comments. Some unexpected RL means it's going to be a bit stop-start over the next fe days, but I'll respond when I can Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:35, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aa77zz, all above done, I think Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:55, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • and weighing 90–138 grams (3.2–4.9 oz) - perhaps "and weighs ..."
  • They are incubated by both parents... - usually by the female

Description

  • Adult ring ouzels undergo complete moult... missing article - "undergo a complete moult."

Distribution and habitat

  • In the n the west of the range ... - this whole sentence is garbled
  • , actually under Breeding, but still a mess. I promise I hadn't been drinking }: Fixed now, I hope Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:00, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • An observation: Drawing the distribution map must have been a challenge - I've looked at 5 maps and no two agree. Svensson (Collins) doesn't indicate any areas in France where the birds are resident.

- Aa77zz (talk) 14:05, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support - the changes all look good. Well done. -Aa77zz (talk) 17:11, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Aa77zz, this article is awaiting a source review for reliability and formatting, do you think you might be able to undertake that? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:37, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ian Rose I'll do the source review tomorrow. - Aa77zz (talk) 07:43, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility review edit

FunkMonk edit

  • Marking my spot until I get more time for a proper review. FunkMonk (talk) 14:44, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • To solve some of the issues mentioned above, perhaps link to the bird glossary instead of unrelated articles?
  • The right side of the article is a bit of a wall of images now. Perhaps group some of the related ones in double images, such as the male and female of one subspecies?
  • The only female we have is of T. t. torquatus, which would have to join the male of the nominate ssp in the infobox. However, I can't work out how to do that without losing the sound file there, making that image3 doesn't seem to work. In the meantime, I've shrunk the female image with the upright parameter Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:18, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the female to the speciesbox and cropped both images to make them more similar. Please revert if you think this is a mistake. - Aa77zz (talk) 14:12, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good! FunkMonk (talk) 21:54, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks to Aa77zz Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:35, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The ring ouzel was first described by Carl Linnaeus in his 1758 10th edition of Systema Naturae under its current scientific name." Shouldn't this be first in the taxonomy section then?
  • There are some geographical duplinks.
  • Link Francis Willughby somewhere? I think you could spell out his name under taxonomy, even if it's mentioned earlier in a book title.
  • Link thrush in the article body.
  • I'm not sure how to solve this, but it seems there's duplication between the subspecies and habitat sections.
  • I think that the subspecies section has to spell out where they occur, the distribution just summaries the overall picture Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:35, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are many very short paragraphs under description (and other places), I think there's a MOS guideline against this...
  • I thought it made sense to give each ssp a separate para, but I've rolled them together, plus a couple of other places where there may not be a clear change of topic Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:35, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "form a distinctive formed whitish panel" Double form?
  • "through Scandinavia to northwest Russia, and in mountains across and central southern Europe from the Pyrenees through the Alps" Comma after across? A bit difficult to follow now.
  • A stray "and" seemed to have crept in on last revision to that para, removed now Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:08, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with unimproved short grass" What does unimproved mean?
  • Anything on how the subspecies are interrelated? Has there been any attempts to merge them into a single species, or split them into distinct species?
  • I guess you mean merge them into a single subspecies. They differ significantly in appearance, and it's hard to see any basis for making them a single subspecies. Similarly, they are all obviously variants of ring ouzel, even Willughby accepted that alpestris and torquatus were different forms of the same species Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:43, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, usually there are a lot of strange historical revisions, but might just not be the case here. FunkMonk (talk) 15:00, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There may be two broods, especially in the south of the range." Is stated twice in the breeding section.
  • "is 3–6 pale blue or greenish-blue eggs" What determines whether they're pale blue or greenish? Area? Subspecies? Or is this just different ways of describing the same colour?
  • As far as I can ascertain, it's just natural variation. There may be environmental or genetic factors, but I can't find anything on these. The eggs in the image are so alike, however, I'd guess that they come from the same clutch Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:43, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are some subspecies more threatened than others?
  • Again, we are largely dependent on where recent studies have been done, but there doesn't appear to be any thing obvious Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:43, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The images used are a bit samey. How about this[2] image that shows alpestris with bugs instead of the one used (could be cropped)?
  • Support - looking very nice to me now. FunkMonk (talk) 15:00, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your help with this and the support. I actually saw two male ring ouzels this morning, a good bird for Leicestershire since they are just passing through on their way to the uplands further north Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:32, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think I've ever seen one, appears they mainly visit Jutland, whereas I live on Zealand... FunkMonk (talk) 12:35, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Cas Liber edit

Placeholder for later. Looking a bit later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:13, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

....an extensive geographical range and a large population... - in lead, is "geographical" redundant here?
The survival rate for juveniles in their first year is 36%, and the annual survival rate for adults is 47% for males and 37% for females. - bit repetitive, why not "Around 36% of juveniles survive their first year, while the annual survival rate for adults is 47% for males and 37% for females." or somesuch
Sorry -was AFK for most of weekend. Will look properly in a few hours Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:49, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bleh, was gonna list some quibbles but ended up just doing them meself...looks fine comprehensiveness and prosewise Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:49, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Therapyisgood edit

I can review this soon. Therapyisgood (talk) 19:38, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • There are signs of decline in several countries, suspected causes including climate change, human disturbance, hunting and outdoor leisure activities. perhaps a semi-colon in exchange for the first comma here
  • "Ring Ouzel" was first used by John Ray in his 1674 Collection of English words not generally used should "Collection of English words not generally used" be title case while The Ornithology of Francis Willughby of Middleton in the County of Warwick is?
  • When I click ref 18 it doesn't go down to the reference.
  • The plumage of the male of the nominate race can you explain what "nominate race" means in parenthesis?
  • Males of T. t. alpestris have broader white scalloping can you link "scalloping" somewhere?
  • There isn't really an appropriate link, scalloping doesn't help, so I've glossed instead. As is often the case, the images are abetter demonstration than words can convey Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:00, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The species is migratory, with birds leaving the breeding areas in September and October.Birds of the nominate subspecies space
  • In the Atlantic, it is regular winter visitor missing an "a", I believe.
  • The eggs are 30 x 22 mm convert
  • You're missing spaces in several of the page references, compare refs 2, 3, 4 to ref 5. Therapyisgood (talk) 22:39, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Duh... spacing and full stops in this type of short ref is normally one of the first things I check, fixed ref 8 too Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:00, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Wehwalt edit

Support. Looks good. Just a few things.

  • "The ring ouzel was first described by Carl Linnaeus in his 1758 10th edition of Systema Naturae under its current scientific name" I might move the final five words of the sentence to after "Linnaeus".
  • Why is hairy alpenrose given its Latin name on second mention?--Wehwalt (talk) 10:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Ian Rose This is the review that I agreed to undertake yesterday - see above. The cited sources are consistently formatted and they are all suitably reliable. I haven't systematically checked whether the sources support the text. I have a few comments:

  • Ref. 5. Ray 1674: A link to the Google scan may be more reliable in this instance: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=njdWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT8
  • Ref 9. Harvie-Brown & Cordeaux 1880: the final page in range should be 204
  • Ref. 14. Reilly 2018 pp 221-225: cited to support they are characterised by rounded heads, longish, pointed wings, and usually melodious songs. I cannot see a mention of heads and wings within this page range. (but it is possible that I missed it)
You have retained the same reference but removed the mention of the head. I cannot see support for they are characterised by longish, pointed wings and why do you cite 6 pages for this simple statement? - Aa77zz (talk) 13:28, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Found it. On p.36 of Clement and Hathway (2000). "with rounded heads, medium or long, pointed wings..." - Aa77zz (talk) 13:34, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aa77zz Thanks for that, I've now moved Clement and Hathway to cited texts, and re-reffed that bit to p. 36 thereof Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:48, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref. 16. Brehm 1831: page range 377-378
  • Ref. 17. Hartert 1923: page range 663-664
  • Ref. 19. Mullarney et al 1999: The isbn is for the hardback 2nd edition published in 2010. The isbn for the 1st edition is 9780002197281 or 9780007113323. I have the paperback 2nd edition and the ring ouzel is on the cited page (p. 296). For the 2nd edition the first author is Lars Svensson.
  • (Ref. 21. Leverton 1993: I was walking on the South Downs yesterday but didn't see a ring ouzel)
  • Ref. 22. Snow and Perrins 1998: This is in Volume 2 Passerines.
  • Ref. 28. Sim et al 2013: The doi links to the journal and is open access but the title links to BioOne and requires a subscription. I suggest that the url is changed to the journal https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1365-2656.2010.01798.x

- Aa77zz (talk) 11:23, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Aa77zz, many thanks, all changes made as suggested. My Collins is second edition hardback for which data is, I think, correct now Svennson is lead author. Sorry Leverton let you down, there is still time! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:07, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sources look good. - Aa77zz (talk) 12:14, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

^Aa77zz: Is that a support/pass on the source review? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:03, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild - A pass for the source review. I'm sorry that this was unclear. - Aa77zz (talk) 16:46, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aa77zz, no worries; thank you for doing it. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:16, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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