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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rhythm Killers/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 21:35, 30 September 2012 [1].

Rhythm Killers

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Rhythm Killers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Dan56 (talk) 15:12, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it is well written, notable enough, and fulfills FA criteria. Dan56 (talk) 15:12, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When the references are from a well-known publication such as The New York Times, I don't think it's necessary to specify that it is published in New York by The New York Times Company. You could simplify many of the references by removing the location and publisher. GoingBatty (talk) 15:31, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I know, but I was told once about being consistent with citations like that; if I can include it for a lesser known magazine like i-D, then maybe for the rest? Dan56 (talk) 15:35, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at Template:Cite_news#Publisher, I'll omit the ones with the location in the name. Dan56 (talk) 15:44, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to direct you to see Template:Citation, which has similar information. IMHO, you could use them for a little known or ambiguous source without having to use them for NYT and USA Today. GoingBatty (talk) 15:46, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean omitting the location, publisher, or both? Dan56 (talk) 15:56, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Omit both, per Template:Citation, which states:
  • publisher: Not normally included where the publication is a periodical which has its own Wikipedia article (e.g. Newsweek, Billboard).
  • publication-place (or place or location): Omit when the publication is a periodical whose name specifies the location (e.g. The New York Times, The Times of India)
Removed publishers from periodical citations. I left the Washington, D.C. locations for papers like the Washingtonian and Washington Post to disambiguate from the state of Washington. Dan56 (talk) 18:16, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I like that you WebCite'd the links, however, when the link is still live, the cite should specify "deadurl=no" so the cite link is to the original (and the archive link is to the WebCite page). -- J. Wong (talk) 18:56, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the Album ratings should specify the publication, specifically, in the case of album guides, e.g., rather than Rolling Stone (1992) it should be Rolling Stone Album Guide, and rather than Spin it should be Spin Alternative Record Guide, to distinguish them from the periodical publications.
P.S., Here's a link to the original Spin review published in the magazine: [2] -- J. Wong (talk) 19:06, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Thanks about that "deadurl". That does seem more practical. I thought the Spin Record Guide score would be better than "favorable", but the original will do as well. Dan56 (talk) 19:36, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
P.P.S., Here's a link to an archive version of a posted copy of the originally published Rolling Stone review: [3].
-- J. Wong (talk) 23:47, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Appreciate it. Dan56 (talk) 00:23, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comments on sourcing and files:

  • Links such as this, this, this and this should be brought to question for reputability. I'm not so sure I feel confident about a Discogs link at the bottom of the page either.
  • The audio files lack detailed rationales, which should be added. Explanations on how the particular files add to the article are needed. General preloaded rationales (that are currently there) are just the starting point. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 22:44, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I replaced the WhoSampled source with one from The Daily Telegraph and added more comprehensive rationales for the files. I'm not sure about IMDB (replaced it with a book source I found with this search), but the Rhapsody reviewer Nick Dedina has written for Allmusic, and the content from CD Universe is from Muze, which also provides product page information (content background, review snippets, release dates, etc.) for other music retailers. Like Allmusic, Muze is published by Rovi Corporation. Dan56 (talk) 23:18, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But what makes CD Universe itself a reliable source for composition info? It's a retailer, not a music critic site. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 11:40, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's Muze's content that cites the composition info; Muze shows up at the bottom of the page where the copyright is, as for other retailers (example (release notes). Their information is also used by Allmusic and Rotten Tomatoes, which wouldnt validate it? Dan56 (talk) 13:50, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If it's still questionable, I can make this change, removing the one piece it cites, replace the second's source, but keep the reissue date it cites, as a media information provider should know that of their product. Dan56 (talk) 13:59, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that looks good. Seeing as how the Muze release notes do not have an author specified, I wouldn't use it for reviews and song content info. Release dates are OK. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 14:21, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support... with just one concern. This is a very complete, well-written, interesting article. (It's convinced me to check out an album I never would have otherwise, which I think is the mark of a great Wikipedia music article). My only objection, and it is a fairly minor one, is the mention of Downtown music as an influence. Seeing this really piqued my interest—a funk album with influence from indeterminacy and noise?—as it didn't seem plausible. I was very interested to see the text and source backing that up. All that I found was Allmusic saying the album had "a bit of ... experimental downtown flair", which I don't find compelling evidence. It's not clear that the Allmusic quote is referring specifically to the same Downtown music scene that includes John Cage and La Monte Young, nor is there any evidence (in the article) that the artists themselves acknowledged such an influence. Otherwise this is certainly FA-quality work. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 01:54, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Flair" seems like a stronger word than influence; more like a style. The album has a lot of aggressive, noisy elements that occasionaly popup, but it is just an element. A similar work (funk of this kind) is Funkcronomicon, also a Laswell production; he seems to be known for an experimental and "collision" aesthetic, and is likely the reason for this. Also, downtown music is further mentioned in the article in the "content" section: "downtown saxophone by Henry Threadgill. [19]" Couldnt find any quotes from the artists about anything other than Sly and Robbie's instrumentation in the studio. But like you said, it's just an influence, and the article on downtown music makes it kind of ambiguous. Like Allmusic's mention of downtown, hip hop is also verified elsewhere as an influence. Dan56 (talk) 02:06, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You might have to find some .rar file or torrent online to cop this album, like I did. Shame that it's out of print. Dan56 (talk) 02:08, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Images are fine, but the music samples are a little questionable. A detailed explanation of what the samples are adding to the article is required in the rationale. Further, each song has literally a short sentence devoted to it; are these really needed? Even if you are going to try to justify them as illustrations of the musical style of the whole album, do we really need two? J Milburn (talk) 16:24, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The first sample illustrates the sung dance songs and P-funk vocalists who worked on the album, and the second illustrates the reggae (toast/rap, not sung) and downtown (mentioned in previoua comments) influences incorporated troughout the album. Dan56 (talk) 17:01, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Only illustrating one of them would be a little one-sided, and only two seems conservative. Dan56 (talk) 17:01, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Again, that's not great. Potentially, yes, I can see that two files are appropriate, but we need to see further improvement to the rationales. For an FA-quality rationale, we'd be looking for a detailed explanation of what the file is there to illustrate and why that needs to be illustrated, tying the file to the specific text of the article. J Milburn (talk) 17:38, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Is this more specific? If not, do you have an example of an appropriate rationale? Dan56 (talk) 21:10, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's still a little general. That could be about any sample in any article. It could be worse, though. J Milburn (talk) 14:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Dan56 is one of the most consistently talented editors on this website, and I believe the article is another example of that. It's a really interesting article on an album I hadn't even heard of, it's referenced impeccably and the writing quality is quite impressive. For a lesser-known album, coverage of this degree should be recognized. Bruce Campbell (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are spotchecks, of sources for verification and close-paraphrasing, next? Dan56 (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate's comments - Yes. I would like to see a few spotchecks. Graham Colm (talk) 10:00, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Posted request at FAC talk page. Dan56 (talk) 18:57, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate's spotchecks

  • Article:After their work with Black Uhuru and the group's line-up change, Sly and Robbie pursued more international music endeavors.[2
  • Source:After Michael Rose left Black Uhuru (following the group being awarded the first-ever reggae Grammy in 1984), Sly and Robbie delved further into the international arena.

(notice the ugly fused participle that we would not allow here)

  • Article: For their next album, they sought to record a like-minded album to expand their audience.[9]
  • Source:The third and final volume of Sly & Robbie's late-'80s attempt to crack the American market trades the goulash of hard rock, worldbeat, and disco of Language Barrier and Rhythm Killers for something a bit simpler.
  • Article:The album's songs are characterized by deep bass, striking beats,[19]
  • Source: Not available
  • Article:The album's songs are arranged into a gapless suite on each side, both of which begin with covers of early 1970s R&B songs.[16]
  • Source: This is hard to read with my old eyes but I can decipher "Through its two side-long suites, each kicked off by a classic early-70s R&B cover.."
  • Article: Rhythm Killers was voted number 25 in The Village Voice's Pazz & Jop critics' poll for 1987.[57]
  • Source:
23.Rosanne Cash: King's Record Shop (Columbia))
24. The dB's: The Sound of Music (I.R.S.)
25. Sly and Robbie: Rhythm Killers (Island)

No issues found. Graham Colm (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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