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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Radical Dreamers: Nusumenai Hōseki

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 16:22, 9 February 2008.

Radical Dreamers: Nusumenai Hōseki edit

Previous FAC (04:36, 22 January 2008)
Check external links

To my surprise, Home of the Underdogs is a notable website, and did have a review for this game. It is still the only media mention of Radical Dreamers outside of the sources present found. Since the last FAC, the issue of expanding notes on the various extra scenarios has been addressed, and the music section has been expanded. Also, a couple gameplay notes have been added. The article should now be exhaustively comprehensive. Zeality (talk) 07:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - couple of minor issues: Support, great work! --Laser brain (talk) 14:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Lynx and Kid duel, and she removes the Chrono Trigger from her back pocket and activates it." Who removes it, Lynx or Kid?
    • After the last sentence of the Music heading, the footnote is in italics - it should not be.
    • The image in the infobox has some minor issues. The fair use rationale mentions "Square Enix" but the article cites Squaresoft. On further reading, it's not clear who actually released the game. Additionally, the fair use rationale is for the article Chrono Trigger and not for this one. Recommend using the {{Non-free use rationale}} template so you get the required elements.
    • The other image in the article also listed the incorrect article title in its rationale. --Laser brain (talk) 15:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All corrected. Thanks. Zeality (talk) 02:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments.Support Looks great.
    • "The player must choose from a list of possible actions." - this sounds instructive, how about re-wording it, like the narrative progresses along alternate storylines as the player chooses...
    • "Graphics and animation are minimalistic..." - Curious about the use of "minimalistic". To me, minimalism is an intentional artistic choice, but in the game it looks like its minimalist features are an unintended consequence of resource (time/money) contraints. If you want to keep the term, can you be more descriptive in describing its minimalism (why and how). Or, for example, if I'm correct, write that due to the constraints the developer chose a minimalist style for the graphics and animation. Or, alternatively, ...the developer used minimal graphics and animation.
    • "...sequel to the world of Chrono Trigger." - would Chrono (series) be a more appropriate link?
    • "...development team, which is currently working on Final Fantasy XI." - according to the FFXI article it was released in 2004. --maclean 20:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. For the minimal statement, I rephrased it, "Radical Dreamers features minimal graphics and animation; most areas are rendered with dim, static backgrounds." I took out "the world of" since Cross is a sequel to Trigger, and I clarified that the Cross team are continually updating FFXI (an MMORPG). Thanks for the suggestions. Zeality (talk) 21:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think I nailed down all the errors. Zeality (talk) 01:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Looks better than I thought it could be made to be, great job, nice to see another Chrono series FA. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 16:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Zeality (talk) 20:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seems Cubed3 changed something. It's fixed. The Cocoebiz one goes down from time to time, but is generally reliable. I got a false positive on it a few days ago, but it's up now. Zeality (talk) 20:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Title -Subtitle-" thing is a Japanese subtitle quirk. The article was named like that, but since it's not accepted usage in English, an editor had it and articles like it changed to the current "Title: Subtitle" system. Crisis Core is another example. For the other dashes, do you mean the list with the extra scenarios? The rest of the prose seems to use word1—word2. Zeality (talk) 04:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sorry, Zeality, I misspoke. It's not the last section, it's "Characters and story". I'm not sure about the emdashes used in what seems to be a list; can you doublecheck those with WP:DASH? There are unspaced emdashes in the text, and spaced emdashes in that list. Also, check date formatting on citations (Yasunori Mitsuda (2000-18-12). Chrono Cross OST Liner Notes. Chrono Compendium. Retrieved on July 24, 2006.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I replaced the emdashes between the titles and the descriptions with spaced endashes. For the title themselves, I replaced the emdash in the Gil scenario with a colon after rediscovering that the game presents it that way. Zeality (talk) 23:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved issues from Elcobbola
  • Comment. WP:FUC 3A sets forth "As few non-free content uses as possible are included in each article and in Wikipedia as a whole. Multiple items are not used if one will suffice; one is used only if necessary." Use of both Radical dreamers.png and Radical Dreamer English Logo.png seems questionable, as the images are not meaningfully different from one another. I don't know that "identify[ing] the subject of the article; specifically, the effects of the English patch" is sufficient to warrant use of a non-free image. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 18:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking back, I'm glad you brought that up; I've wanted to get rid of that. I will replace that with a non-free image of Masato Kato which does have direct relevance to the article. 3 for an article this size is still on the conservative side; the number will always be low because Radical Dreamers is a text only game. Not much to show here. Zeality (talk) 23:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, the issue with Radical Dreamer English Logo.png is resolved, but the replacement has a dispute tag. Did we take one step forward and one back? ЭLСОВВОLД talk 01:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • More Comments
    • Possible OR: “The gameplay is similar to a video game version of a gamebook”.
    • Grammar: “Radical Dreamers features three protagonists—Serge, Kid, and Gil, who seek out”. Shouldn’t the comma after Gil be an m-dash?
    • Organization of thought: Gameplay section should be divided into multiple paragraphs, as at least two “topics” are addressed (gameplay and “atmosphere”).
    • Clarity/in-universe: “Serge, is a drifting musician who met Kid three years ago after becoming dissatisfied with life” Three years ago from what date and in what context did they meet? What does “binding” mean? Who is Lavos? (Lavos should be explained in article – for those unfamiliar with the series, following the wikilink is currently mandatory to understand and doing so disrupts the flow).
    • Redundancy: Phrasing of gaining the “upper hand” is used twice in close proximity. Phrasing such as “after evading death from various traps” (why not “after evading various traps”? It’s obvious that traps=bad pie).
    • Overall: It reads as if the author is trying too hard to meet “brillant prose”. The article is peppered with unnecessary adjectives which prompt OR and WP:PEACOCK concerns (e.g. “foreboding” and “renowned”, respectively), impair readability (e.g. “the abode of…” just seems corny) and leads to nonsensical imprecision (e.g. “A handful of themes” – why not just “several”?) ЭLСОВВОLД talk 01:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Foreboding—there is no other suitable adjective to describe foreboding strings; I could use pensive, suspenseful, etc...but the game creates a horror-themed atmosphere as described by Kato. The music sample nails it. I have no idea what kind of sanitary adjective could replace that. Now, I singled out foreboding because it is the only alleged peacock word I'm aware of outside the plot summary, which is a work of fiction which I'm summarizing in its own terms and words.
  • For the Kato picture, there is no free alternative, and I encourage someone to just try and find a free picture of this guy, let alone take one. Ultimania is basically the only time I've ever seen his face, and I run a website on the Chrono series. The situation reflects a failure on the part of copyright-paranoid editors to create a reasonable fair use template for cases such as this. Because of paranoia, I'm already damned to not getting an image on the main page if this makes TFA.
  • The rest of the points have been rectified. Zeality (talk) 04:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can understand, to a degree, the need to use such adjectives in plot sections to adequately convey the game’s tone, atmosphere, etc. Use in other sections, however, is questionable. To continue with the “foreboding” example, would changing “accompanied by foreboding strings” to “accompanied by strings” really be a meaningful detriment to the article – especially given the presence of an audio sample? Foreboding, in itself, is not a deal breaker, but the volume of such adjectives is an OR concern. The only other example that stands out is: “These later stories often feature humorous situations”. Humorous to whom? Humorous is a subjective (i.e. OR) interpretation. These two, admittedly minor, adjectives are the only peacock/OR concerns.
  • To be clear, I don’t contest inclusion of the image. I’m merely unclear about the criterion 3 implications of a disputed fair-use image.
  • Awkward phrasing (e.g. “abode”, “handful of” instead of “several”, etc.) has yet to be addressed. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 15:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1 Okay; sorry about the image contents, as fair use on TFA blurbs is my personal Wikipedia crusade. I've contacted an administrator affiliated with WP:VG about reviewing the image so the {{RK}} template can be added to legitimize it. 2 For the peacock words in the story, I've made sure that there are citations specifically quoting the words I've used, along with a citation describing the Kingdom of Zeal from Chrono Trigger. Also, I've used the Procyon Studio interview with Masato Kato to cite use of "comical" in describing the scenarios, which replaces humorous. I also went ahead and added citations to the scenarios from the game's text. I removed foreboding, since yes, the musical sample does represent that. 3 As part of #2, I've copyedited the article. Zeality (talk) 03:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the image of the developer, which Zeality asked me to pass, I'm not sure if it's a clear "ok". There is the issue of him still being alive, so even as reclusive as he is, the no non-free image of a living person guidance is still in play. But more importantly, I would consider how this images the article, per WP:NFCC#8 - is the reader's understanding of the game improved or enhanced because of the picture of the developer? --MASEM 06:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All right, I removed it. I'll keep the rationales around in case there's ever a future need; the picture will be safe on my website. I suppose it needs to be deleted now. Zeality (talk) 07:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - An excellent article, and I have no quarrel with the prose. --PresN (talk) 06:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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