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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Polish culture during World War II/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [1].

Polish culture during World War II edit

Nominator(s): Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

The article has undergone copyediting per last month request. For introduction and such, see the old nomination. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Very inconsistent formatting in references... A few are done with name-year notes that refer to books cited in the same format the "cite book" template generates (e.g., Madajczyk p.122... which refers to Madajczyk, Czesław. Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce, Tom II). However, a very large number are not. I suggest that you consistently follow the "cite book" format whenever you give the full reference information. The degree of inconsistency is so great that this is a deal-breaker for me; I will Oppose if it isn't cleared up in a few days. Ling.Nut (talk) 02:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - This'll do for a start:
The first one that jumps out is that massive list of Polish authors/writers etc near the top of the article; it doesn't seem to do anything useful in the article, and to be honest it just looks awful. Please cut it down to a few of the most notable or well-known authors etc.
Lead could do with an expansion given the size of the article overall.
There is absolutely no background to the Polish occupation - I'd expect to see at least a general paragraph covering the lead up, ie the invasion, division between Germany and the USSR, etc.
Staggering the pictures would also be a good idea.
It still needs a good copy-edit, mainly for language flow - whilst it's all gramatically correct as far as I can see, it's rather stilted in places.
Okay, that's the second huge, often red-linked, list of names I've seen - now it just looks like you're bulking the article up. Please trim them down to the most notable/important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skinny87 (talk • contribs)
A background section has been added. Various editor move the images as they like, all in the name of it looking good for the FA, and I have long ago given up on trying to interfere. I will expand the lead now, but I don't know what you mean by irrelevant lists of names. All names cited are referenced, are were mentioned by the authors as being relevant to the subject. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I mean those names, many of which are redlinks, seem to be a blatant attempt to expand the article whilst adding nothing of value; the article wouldn't suffer if, at the very least, all of the redlinked names were removed. If not all the redlinks, then certainly narrowing down each list of names to two or three at the most. I take your point on the images. Skinny87 (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but one and a half sentences is not a sufficient background for the subject. Skinny87 (talk) 14:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What about the main templates directing the readers to the dedicated article? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It still needs to be expanded to a few paragraphs. Skinny87 (talk) 07:28, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is now a full paragraph. If there are areas you think should be covered more, please let me know what they are. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 11:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Interesting and comprehensive article, though prose could do with a polish, moving some "the"s around in the usual way. Near the end "Over the years, nearly three-quarters of the Polish people have emphasized the importance of World War II to the Polish national identity" does not seem precisely supported by the ref, and should be rephrased. The red-links seem inevitable in an article on such a subject; no doubt Piotrus will create articles for many in due course. All the images are on the right, which is discouraged, and Der Klabautermann and the Andrzej Wróblewski at the end face out of the page. These and maybe Chopin should be moved to the left. Johnbod (talk) 08:49, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Cites and refs not even within a mile of being standardized. pick a style and stick with it. Ling.Nut (talk) 11:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the reply. Please compare Raack to Sterling in the References section. Then also compare Raack to Moczydłowski in the Citations section. Different styles. Choose one style & stick with it, please. Ling.Nut (talk) 12:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leaning oppose the background section seems completely useless and could be merged into the next section; a ton of redlinks of people that don't really look like will be getting an article anytime soon; half of the references are in Polish although for such a notable topic I bet there are reliable refs in English. Nergaal (talk) 22:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • One reviewer objects because there was no background, the next because there is... I love FACs :) The main templates direct editors to the main articles, what more background is needed? I am asking seriously; I am perhaps to familiar with the subject to understand what more is needed in the form of the introduction. Yes, many refs are in Polish since majority of the scholarship on the subject is Polish, as I wrote earlier I am unfamiliar with the very existence of any English (or otherwise...) works on the subject covered that are not already cited. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:32, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You need to provide a decent summary of the linked article. A couple of sentences really doesn't cut it. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:55, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try and knock out some of these red links by at least stubbing some of them (the names I recognize) with translations from Polish wiki. Since this is a "amongst them" list how about just including those with already existing articles and putting the full list in a footnote (so that future articles can be written on them)? Or would that be also too messy?radek (talk) 03:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus, I don't think Nergaal objected because the background section was there, just that it wasn't detailed enough. As for the footnote idea for the long lists of authors etc, that's an excellent idea. Skinny87 (talk) 07:28, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Roger that; is the expanded background better now? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Current ref 115 (Krzysztof Stoliński) the first link deadlinks
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:11, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is a very well researched article on an important topic, and one of the better articles on Wikipedia. I am confident that any stylistic concerns will be satisfactorily resolved. Nihil novi (talk) 04:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Look, half the cites are Harvard and the other half MLA. You want me to simply fix them for you, to save time here...? Ling.Nut (talk) 15:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment
The article says nothing about German persecution of the Catholic Church in Poland. There were over 2000 priests killed there just for being Catholic priests and even more were sent to concentration camps. John Paul II was almost murdered for holding Mass at an outside altar where troops surrounded him and the congregation. The Catholic Church is a very large part of Polish culture that needs to be included in this article to meet comprehensive criteria of FA.
To be helpful, I offer you this source and quote from a respected non-Catholic historian:Owen Chadwick's A History of Christianity page 254-255 states: "When the Second World War began and the Germans conquered the Catholic country of Poland, the Nazis shot many Polish priests and a few bishops. Perhaps this was more because these clergy were leaders of the people than because they were ministers of religion. Yet the religious element was there, and many Poles were true martyrs: six bishops, 1926 priests, 580 monks, 289 nuns and many more went into concentration camps. Only Stalin committed a worse persecution of a Christian community. It would be known in history as the Martyrdom of Poland if it were not overshadowed by a worse crime. The Nazi onslaught, combined almost at the same time with Stalin's murders of church people, caused a revival of respect for religion in the West - for a decade or two. If these massacres happened when Europe started to repudiate Christianity, the answer must, at least in part, be to return to all that was best in the moral traditions of Christendom. An attack on human rights could be condemned only if human rights had a place in the scheme of the universe; that is, only if therer existed a religious apprehension of humanity and its place in the world." NancyHeise talk 17:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is an interesting point. I am aware of works on this subject (but thank you for the quote), but the current article didn't emphasize it (although note for example statistics like "During the war, Poland lost... 18% to 28% of its clergy"). I think you are right and German Nazi persecution of the Roman Catholic Church in Poland deserves a better mention; I'll shorty add a dedicated para. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Update: done. I will also add a note to the Soviet section on similar measures (source) when I am less tired :) Done. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is better now but I still think there should be some mention of the fact that a large number of priests, monks and nuns were sent to concentration camps as well as being exterminated. Some people think the concentration camps held just Jewish people when in reality, a large number of homosexuals, Christians and other "undesirables" were in the mix. Poland contributed a lot of those "undesirables" to German concentration camps. I see where your article talks about the extermination but not the deportation to these camps and I think at least a sentence or two should suffice. NancyHeise talk 20:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, to help here is a quote from John Vidmar's The Catholic Church Throughout the Ages page 329 quote: "Of 10,000 priests in Poland, 3700 were imprisoned, and 2700 were executed." The author provides a note after this sentence that states "Also in Poland, 1200 nuns were imprisoned, 3800 displaced, 350 executed." I don't expect you to include all the numbers of each group but your article does not make distinction between execution and imprisonment as these scholarly sources do. NancyHeise talk 20:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article already mentions that members of Polish intelligentsia have been sent to the concentration camps; I've added priests to the list of specific groups in the para preceeding the one that I've added. You are welcome to use the refs you've found to expand this para. I think that we need a place on Wikipedia that would include those numbers, you may want to take a look at Pope Pius XII and Poland, Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles and Roman Catholic Church in Poland (we also need histry of the Roman Catholic Church in Poland). I am wondering if there is a good place in the article to at least link to the article on Pope Pius XII and Poland? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 07:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose due to abundant use of dubious sources e.g.:
  • sources published in Communist Poland, such as Madajczyk, 1970 (used to source numerous statements)
  • a pamphlet published by the Polish "Ministry of Information" in 1945 (used to source numerous statements)
  • no publishing date given for "Czocher, Anna, "Jawne polskie życie kulturalne w okupowanym Krakowie 1939–1945 w świetle wspomnień " (used to source numerous statements) (meanwhile added)
  • website article by Ewa Bukowska - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements)
  • website http://www.warsawuprising.com/timeline.htm - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements)
A FA (or any other article) should not rely on that kind of sources to back up "facts". Skäpperöd (talk) 08:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm very, very interested in the response to this question. Have we evidence that the sources are not reliable/NPOV/high quality? Ling.Nut (talk) 09:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The listed websites may qualify as a WP:SPS, but not as a WP:RS in sensu stricto. The sources published during the Communist era should be treated along that line, too: The Communist regime in Poland was partially based on an anti-German agenda and ruled Poland in a totalitarian manner - no free press, no independent research, censorship etc pp. More complex related discussions concerning this kind of sources are here (general reliability discussion at RS/N), here (article-specific RfC), and here (TfD discussion). Consensus so far has not been reached, most editors argue to not discard those sources at sight, but to use them with great care eg for describing historiographic perspectives. WP:RS says scholary sources should be "published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses" - I do not think a Communist era book qualifies for that, neither does the 1945 source of the Polish "information" ministry. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No. The consensus on RS is and was that communist-era sources are generally reliable, but should be treated carefully, particularly if they touch upon an area of known bias. If in doubt whether a particular fact is reliable, this fact should be discussed, and if possible, sourced with non-communist era works. If a particular publication or an author is in doubt, critical reviews need to be presented before the book or an author are deemed unreliable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 08:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Skapperod, your crusade against Polish sources is getting tiresome. Reliability of sources from Polish communist times have been discussed ad nauseum, including at WP:RSN (Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Reliability_of_sources_published_in_Communist_Poland), at Talk:Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#Sources_published_during_the_Communist_era and at Template talk:Communist era sources (editors may also be interested in the ongoing tfd). In all of those discussions the consensus was against you. Polish sources are reliable, and as was explained to you several times, Madajczyk's is considered the most exhaustive review of Nazi's treatment of Polish society and culture, and is still widely cited by post-communist Polish historiography, and not only Polish: here's a list of ~50 English language books published after 1989 that cite him: [2].
Data has been added to Czocher ref. Bukowska was discussed before, and the publisher (London Branch of the Polish Home Army Ex-Servicemen Association) is reliable. Ditto for http://www.warsawuprising.com is run by the Project InPosterum. In any case, I don't think any controversial statements are being sourced from those works, anyway. If you think they are used as a source for some controversial material, let me know and I'll try to provide a better ref. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is no "crusade against Polish sources". This is about how Communist-era sources are used, and I don't know why you think "consensus was against me". I encourage every reviewer to read through the links Piotrus and me gave above to get a picture of how editors want to treat these sources.
Maybe Piotrus can provide a link to the Bukowska discussion - if there is evidence that the site is not to be treated as a WP:SPS I will strike it from the list, too. If "Project imposterum" is a "reputable peer-reviewed source" this should be outlined in the ref and I strike it from the list, too.
Wikipedia has clear guidelines on what sources are reliable for. These should be met in every article, and it is unthinkable for me to have an article pass GA and FA review just because it's MOSsy while statements are referenced with sources that per wiki's core guidelines are not supposed to source these statements. If everything sourced to the Communist-era sources is unproblematic and widely recognized as an uncontroversial factum, then it should be no problem to find a source not published in a totalitarian regime. Same goes for the websites. I don't argue about the content itself, but about the way it is sourced. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It would be convinient for some to eliminate all work of Polish historiography, yet this is not how we deal with it. I've written an extensive article on Soviet historiography, which is much more problematic then Polish, but even I wouldn't say that Soviet history sources should be discarded as a rule (and yes, consensus upon consensus of editors at RS/V and so on have stated the very same thing). If you have issues with content, we can look at it. Polish sources are reliable, unless proven otherwise (look at Talk:Mikhail Meltyukhov to see how one can disprove authors: hint - find reviews critical of their works or research in general). EOT, as far as I am concerned. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"eliminate all work of Polish historiography" - that is not what I said, as you well know. Careful use and attribution to works co-published by the Communist censors. That's what I am saying. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody will disagree with you on principle. But what does this have to do with this article? The works are properly attributed (cited), in most cases the authors are notable enough to have articles about them, further helping the user to learn about the source (ex. by reading Czesław Madajczyk bio). Are you saying that they have not been carefully used? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We must avoid broad-brush condemnations of scholarship, based on when it was published. A lot of excellent work was published in Poland before 1989, some of it by authors who began their careers well before World War II and who had little or no sympathy for communism. Some of this scholarship indeed contributed to the sociopolitical transformations that followed after 1989. Nihil novi (talk) 14:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Skapperod, this has been discussed on at least three occasions already. And each time the general consensus is that while in GENERAL Communist-era sources must be used with caution, Madajczyk in PARTICULAR is a reliable source. In addition to Piotrus' list of around 50 English language sources which cite him and use him and consider him reliable, here's a very incomplete list of links to academic peer reviewed works which also cite him, available online: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]. And that's just from a cursory examination. Additionally there's many many Polish post-1990 works which cite him as well. While I understand your concerns about Communist era sources in general, in this particular instance - Madajczyk - there is pretty overwhelming evidence that he should be considered reliable. So you should probably strike him from that list as well unless you're going to take the (anti-consensus) position that any Communist era source, even when considered reliable by Western academics, is always and everywhere unreliable.radek (talk) 22:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you have the statements sourced to Madajczyk cited in other works use those as supplement cite. The problem with the booksearch Piotrus performed is that the returned hits were mostly random and unrelated mentions of the name or date and not the actual cites you provided. The problem with the cites you provided is in turn that not the statements made in the article are cited. Madajczyk was a member of the ruling Communist party. In Madajczyk's favour it must be ammended that membership in the Communist party was semi-obligatory to everyone aiming at a successful career and does not necessarily mean that the member supported everything the Communists said and did. Yet no matter how decent a person was - and in favour of the scholars let's assume they were the most decent persons - there was no way of circumventing the censors' guidelines. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)Skäpperöd (talk) 05:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You are obviously asking for something well and beyond the usual standard, and, as you well know, pretty much impossible. To take a work in a foreign language and then find the a corresponding sentence in a English language work would involve a prohibitive amount of time and effort. It is hard to avoid a suspicion that you are just trying to throw up insurmountable roadblocks here. The issue is Madajczyk as a source and whether or not he is considered a reliable source by a) Western academics and b) the consensus of Wikipedia editors as discussed on RS board and other places. The answer on both these counts is "Yes - reliable". I don't see why if Madajczyk is treated as a reliable source by numerous non-communist writers (as shown generally by Piotrus and in the specifically enumerated instances by me) Wikipedia should have a problem with him. This also seems like something along the lines of a POV fork - trying to restart a discussion on this topic after you've failed to get your way in the three previous discussions.radek (talk) 06:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In regard to Bukowska - website article by Ewa Bukowska - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements): Actually, the website is written by many or at least some historians and scholars, for example Prof. Garlinski, [11], Norman Davies, MRD Foot [12] (it's the Oxford Companion to WWII!) [13], Kondracki [14] ... and others, which you can/could've checked yourself. As to Bukowska herself (her bio's not up yet on the site) she is one of the Polish teachers that the article discusses and has certainly been published on the subject in academic work, for example, here: [15] or here: [16]. Additionally this is a bit of making a mountain out of a mole hill since out of the four times that Bukowska is used as a source in the article, three of those times are backed up by other, additional sources and I don't believe any of the statements are controversial.radek (talk) 22:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just because the website hosts articles of notable scholars does not mean that everything else the website hosts becomes automatically a reliable source other than per WP:SPS. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It takes a good bit of bad faith to reach such a conclusion. I could maybe see it if it was like one historian and a dozen unknown writers but here we have basically a star studded cast. I've also provided other information about Bukowska which further supports her reliability.radek (talk) 06:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise, website http://www.warsawuprising.com/timeline.htm - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements) - actually, the website, whose aim is to promote knowledge of the Uprising, was constructed with considerable input from notable historians and archivists: [17].radek (talk) 22:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While scholary input is mentioned in the "Thank you"-section, this input is not identifiable in the text, and from the very "Thank you"-section it is obvious that the articles are neither written by these scholars, nor a sole rewrite of their work. The website is to be used as a WP:SPS only. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Many academic, reliable, sources that we cite in many FAs only have a general bibliography without the input of each individual work being readily identifiable in the text. This is no different as the acknowledgment is essentially a form of a bibliography.radek (talk) 06:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And let's not forget my point, so far unanswered by Skäpperöd: are any of those sources used as a sole source for controversial/fringe/extreme claims? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

About Madajczyk and assesment of his work in modern western historiography:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#About_Madajczyk "It is with great sadness that we have learned of the death of Professor Czeslaw Madaiczyk, Chairman of the Polish Committee for the History of World War I and II, who died on 15 February 2008. Czeslaw Madajczyk was an eminent historian, whose scholarly work on 20th Century Polish and European History has been widely acknowledged and respected. His important studies on Nazi occupation of Europe after 1938, and in particular on Hitler’s rule of Poland have greatly enhanced our understanding of the often complicated and obscured processes of German occupation policies as well as of the differing experiences of ordinary peoples under Fascist dictatorship and oppression. These and some of his other books, notably on cultural life in Nazi occupied Europe, on the “Generalplan Ost” and other German war-time plans for Eastern Europe as well as on the Soviet massacre at Katyn, have become milestones of the historiography of the Second World War. He was a co-founder and for more than two decades also the first editor of the distinguished Polish quarterly “Dzieje Najnowsze” (Recent History). Between 1971 and 1983 Professor Madajczyk led the Institute of History of the Polish Academy of Sciences. Besides he was Vice-President of the Polish Committee of Historical Sciences (1971-1985) and later became one of the Vice-Presidents of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War (1980–1995). In these capacities Czeslaw Madajczyk was an ardent supporter of international scholarly cooperation and exchanges, even at times when relations between historians on both sides of the iron curtain were still threatened or questioned by political conditions and developments. The death of Czeslaw Madajczyk is a grave loss for the international community of World War II historians. Gerhard Hirschfeld President of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War" http://www.ihtp.cnrs.fr/cih2gm/

--Molobo (talk) 19:01, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. The article is comprehensive and quite sufficiently detailed; providing excellent background information for further research, but please keep in mind also that this is not a book and cannot be treated as such with further requests for covering everything. For example, the pivotal role of the Catholic Church in Poland is undeniable, but the church is not a “cultural” institution in the usual sense – it is a “religious” institution often with considerable holdings of historic art and archives. By the same token, I would suggest to please consider trimming the extensive list of obscure writers whose contribution to Polish culture is (and will always remain) negligible, such as the petty communist ideologues without sister articles in Wikipedia. Only the names of instrumental contributors to Polish culture can be justified by the limited size and scope of this 80 KB article, as per above. --Poeticbent talk 16:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking to the polish sources issue above, I don't see a problem with using those sources if they are supplemented with others. This article does that. I think the inclusion of some communist era Polish sources are evidence of the article's attempt at comprehensiveness. If these were the only sources used, I might think they were evidence of the article's bias but this is not the case. NancyHeise talk 17:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If each of these references was supplemented, I would not argue. But they are not. Eg, the first reference to Madajczyk (1970) is what is now citenote [7], which is used nine times. Of the nine statements sourced to [7], only two are backed up by another one. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take a look. NancyHeise talk 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So? Is anything cited with those sources controversial? As I've explained above, Madajczyk is considered both reliable and an expert on the subject. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
More comments from Nancy : This sentence "The policy of supporting propaganda cultural activities in Polish language clashed with the Russification policy which argued for phasing out the Polish language. While Polish language was removed from schools[67] and even Polish street signs disappeared,[76] the pro-Polish language policy was spurred before the bogus elections of 26 October 1939,[76] and then in late spring 1940, after Hitler's armies had defeated France and the Soviet Union was left alone facing the Third Reich, and Stalin concluded that Poles could be useful in a confrontation with the Nazis." is an example of the problem I have with the article's prose.
I think the article content is fascinating and I want to support it for FA but I can not because it needs a very thorough effort to correct the prose. Many sentences are missing words such as "the" and are a little bit too long. It sounds as if the article's creator speaks English as a second language and I am very impressed with the article. I only speak one language, English and have tried to learn both Spanish and French for many years with little results to show so bilingual people are an amazement to me. I will try to help go through the article to clean it up but it would be nice if someone could help me too. Thanks, NancyHeise talk 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will give the article another go-over for copy editing - the sentence you cite is definitely clumsy. This can definitely be fixed.radek (talk) 22:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
At this count, the article has been copyedited by ~10 native speakers. Any further help is of course welcome, but I would lie if I said that the copyediting process is very well designed. That said, I of course agree that English Wikipedia article should be written in best English prose. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus, can you do something to break up the sentence I pointed out above? I don't want to touch it without going to the source and first reading what the scholar is trying to convey. I could not do this because the source is in Polish. The English supplementary source is listed on Google Books but the pages cited in the article are not part of the preview available on Google Books. The sentence should really be broken down into two or three separate sentences. NancyHeise talk 00:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do what I can.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral I regret that I can not support the article right now. In addition to prose, I agree with Skäpperöd that the article makes excessive use of Polish language sources. Use of these sources makes it difficult for someone like me to check content enough to make sure the article is free of plagiarism and accurately reflects the meaning expressed by the sources supporting the sentences. While many English language sources are used to compliment the Polish sources. There are large stretches of article content where no English language companion source exists to support the Polish language sources. If I were a more intelligent person who could speak Polish and English, like the article's nominator, I might be in a position to support. Perhaps there exists on Wikipedia a bilingual editor like this who could come examine the article and offer a more sound opinion. NancyHeise talk 18:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"agree with Skäpperöd that the article makes excessive use of Polish language sources" - seems like I have not made myself clear: I do not object Polish language sources. I object to the unconditional use of sources published during the the Communist era. And the websites which as WP:SPS do not qualify to back up anything other than statements about themselves. Regards Skäpperöd (talk) 18:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The use is quite conditional, but your critique is not. You have so far not criticized any part of the cited content, you just criticize the sources in general, again and again. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please take a look at the previous FAC, where I linked my lenghty explanation on the sources used. Short version: much of the relevant scholarship is available only in Polish, since (surprise!) Polish scholars are more interested in the issue then non-Polish ones. Please also note that so far three bilingual (English-Polish) editors have commented here (Radeksz, Nihil novi and Poeticbent), all of them supportive of this article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that much scholarship on this subject is probably in Polish. I do not object to the use of Polish sources or communist era Polish sources. I was just pointing out that I am not qualified to cast a support vote because the sources are in a language I do not speak. I hope the FAC directors assistants will place proper weight on the votes of those bilingual editors. The article needs some polish on the prose before it can go FA however. NancyHeise talk 21:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you are qualified to vote - you don't have to research of all sources to vote, I don't recall seeing this in any FAC procedures :) Also, please note Wikipedia:V#Non-English_sources (they are allowed). Btw, could you help with the prose polish? That's something that I cannot do myself. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Very few of the users of Wikipedia can read Polish, even the Polish readers would have great difficulty to obtain and verify the sources in this article. To improve the article English language sources that can be obtained in libraries and sold on the internet should support those out of print Polish sources now used. Keep them, but include English language sources also.--Woogie10w (talk) 00:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The following template may be useful in this case,
Vielen dank, Skapperod for pointing out the need to improve this article with verifiable sources--Woogie10w (talk) 13:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am pretty sure that Polish sources cover the discussed issues in more detail than English, hence per Wikipedia:V#Non-English_sources they are acceptable. Of course, if you can verify various facts from Polish sources with English, by all means, please do so. As I've explained above, I was paying more attention to this article being comprehensive than I cared about what language sources I use. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My obvious intent is to forgo the nuclear option that would tag the article as tainted red propaganda, a precision guided strike with reliable English language sources is all that is needed.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you suggest some? Nihil novi (talk) 14:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Polish Society Under German Occupation by Jan Gross would provide the foundation, Madajczyk would fill in the fine point details--Woogie10w (talk) 14:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus, here's a good English language source [18] it is published by this [19] publishing house that was founded by a Polish man whose specialty is publishing English translations of Polish and other foreign language books. I think it would be an improvement for the article to use more English language sources. It is a valuable article full of great information and you have done a tremendous job giving us this gift of Polish insight into your country's cultural trials in WWII. I would like to see this become FA but I can not support or do much with the prose if the sentences are cited to Polish sources. Can you spend a little bit of time to add English refs to the article and then give me a ping and I'll come help with prose? Please consider that English speaking news organizations and others often use Wikipedia for information but the information needs to be verifiable by them as well. If the article cites obscure Polish sources, it is doubtful that it would be a useful article to the population at large. NancyHeise talk 01:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can do. Are there any particular claims you'd like me to verify with English sources? Please note that Ling.Nut has removed all Google Book links, making the verification of anything much more difficut, I am now waiting for him to restore them before I'll start adding new refs. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 06:39, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I was holding off on an actual vote until a little bit of work to improve the article has been done. Now it has been copy edited a few more times by several different editors, a lot of the red links have been now created (about 25 or so), referencing style has been standardized and I hope the concern over the sources have been alleviated. No reason for this not to go ahead.radek (talk) 06:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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