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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Phillip Davey/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 19:12, 11 December 2018 [1].

Phillip Davey edit

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:18, 5 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article is the third on a South Australian Victoria Cross recipient I've brought to FAC, part of an ongoing slow-burn project to get them all to FA. Davey was first awarded the Military Medal for bravery after rescuing a wounded man, and a few months later he killed an eight-man German machine-gun crew, saving his platoon from annihilation, for which he was awarded the VC. This article went through GAN in 2017, and was expanded considerably prior to and during its Milhist A-Class review in March this year. While relatively brief, it contains all that I have been able to find on him in reliable sources, and I believe it is comprehensive. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:18, 5 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1 edit

You've missed the 100-year anniversary. The prose is ... ok. But needs a proper copy-edit. I've looked through a third to half of this rather short article (which uses "involved" three times ... one could be "participated in"?):

  • "Davey enlisted in the Australian Imperial Force in December 1914, and joined his unit, the 10th Battalion, before it landed at Anzac Cove, Gallipoli, on 25 April 1915." It's very bumpy with five commas. Why not ", and joined the 10th Battalion on 25 April 1915, before it landed at Anzac Cove, Gallipoli."?
  • Because he didn't join the battalion on 25 April, that was the date of the landing. I'm open to re-working the prose. Perhaps ending the sentence at December 1914 and starting a new sentence?
  • "Because"? I don't see that reasoning. My suggestion changes nothing in that respect, so there must have already been a problem with your rendering. Tony (talk) 05:35, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and re-joined to his battalion"—what happened there?
  • "In January 1918 he was awarded the Military Medal for bravery in the field, which involved rescuing a wounded man under fire."—wouldn't it be simpler to write: "In January 1918 he was awarded the Military Medal for bravery in rescuing a wounded man under fire."?
  • Done.
  • "Phillip Davey was born on 10 October 1896 at Unley, South Australia, to William George Davey and his wife Elizabeth née O'Neill, one of at least five sons of the couple. His father was a carpenter. He attended the Flinders Street Model School and the Goodwood Public School. After his schooling ended, Davey was involved in well boring and opal mining in Central Australia, and at the outbreak of war he was a horse-driver." "he" is his father? Looks like it.

    Phillip Davey was born on 10 October 1896 at Unley, South Australia, to William George Davey, a carpenter, and his wife Elizabeth née O'Neill; he one of at least five sons of the couple. He attended the Flinders Street Model School and the Goodwood Public School. After his schooling ended, Davey was involved in well boring and opal mining in Central Australia, and at the outbreak of war he was a horse driver."

  • Done.
  • "On 22 December 1914, aged 18 years, Davey enlisted as a private in the Australian Imperial Force (AIF), and was posted to the 2nd reinforcements to the 10th Battalion."—Do you need the comma after (AIF)? It's not a long sentence and there are no other ands. Check you do need to ... to. I guess you do. Also check "embarked in" (rather than "from"). I don't know the standard wording.
  • removed "years" and the comma. I think the to ... to is needed. Changed to "embarked at".
  • Unless "the 10th Battalion's 2nd reinforcement" is possible in standard wording for this topic. Tony (talk) 05:35, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... was the first brigade ashore about 4:30 am.[5] Davey was involved in the heavy fighting at the landing and subsequent trench warfare defending the beachhead until, after several bouts of illness, he was evacuated to Egypt with enteric fever in early November." "at" 4:30am. Tendency to write over-long and complex sentences. Why not: "and subsequent trench warfare defending the beachhead; after several bouts of illness, he was evacuated to Egypt with enteric fever in early November." Tony (talk) 12:54, 5 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK, the rest of it needs running over. Can you find someone? Tony (talk) 05:35, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes Dank takes a look at the prose of articles at FAC, but I generally find GOCE c/e's at FAC to be less than useful, and sometimes counter-productive. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:04, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm working on a new project, PM, that's why I haven't had time for FAC lately ... I don't see that changing in the near future. - Dank (push to talk) 13:17, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67: I'll take a look. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clikity (talk • contribs) 07:25, 8 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The review has been canceled due to time restraints, Peacemaker67. Sorry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clikity (talk • contribs) 00:49, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I reviewed and supported at MilHist ACR and was planning to recuse and review here, just wanted to give others a chance to comment first. Will see how I go this week. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • File:Phillip_Davey_VC_MM.jpg: given the info provided by AWM, why do we believe this is AustraliaGov? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:27, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The specific description page for the image identifies that it is in the public domain, but doesn't identify why - I'm not certain we can assume it's AustraliaGov (rather than PD for another reason). Nikkimaria (talk) 12:43, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is any more specific information about its provenance available? Do the contextual details support a tag of AustraliaGov or UKGov? Would AWM have any more info about the image? We know it's PD, let's see if we can figure out why before jumping to fair use. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:33, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Getting that information from AWM could take a while and they may not have much to add, but I have emailed them anyway. From what I know, after VC investitures at Buckingham Palace, photos were often taken back in the garden at AIF Headquarters, London, following the ceremony. In this case, it was eight days after the ceremony, which may explain why he is only wearing the ribbon of the VC (and MM), not the actual medal. I assume that was taken by an AIF photographer. Will report back once I receive an answer, but if it looks like being promoted, I may have to go to fair use. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:12, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Nikkimaria, they are telling me there is nothing more to say about the photograph's provenance. I think I'll have to rely on AustraliaGov on the basis that it was most likely taken by a AIF photographer, or move it to Wikipedia from Commons and use a NFUR. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:29, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by JennyOz edit

Hi Peacemaker67, only a few minor comments

  • fatigue duties - wlink?
  • was employed by the South Australian Railways - is 'the' correct?
  • Bullecourt - wlink?
  • to the Battle of Menin Road - pipe?
  • but returned to his unit of his own accord - does that mean he proactively requested to go back, or was he presented with the choice to stay/go?
  • I'm assuming that he didn't think much of training recruits and wanted to get back to fighting, but the sources don't say. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:24, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • during a "peaceful penetration" - pipe?
  • Les Carlyon - authorlink
  • All online refs are working
  • NAA ref - Bot just created red error

Thanks PM, JennyOz (talk) 05:03, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

G'day JennyOz. All done, except I'm not sure what you mean regarding the two "pipe" comments? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:24, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi PM, I meant pipes to avoid the redirects (I'm not always 100% sure when/when not to.) Also, the last edit accidentally pasted brackets into British War Medal. Thanks for telling this fellow's story which I am happy to support. Regards, JennyOz (talk) 06:55, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think we're allowed to have redirects, just not dab pages. Fixed the brackets. Thanks for the review, Jenny! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:12, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Mike Christie edit

  • Not an issue for FAC, but I was curious to know if the other NCO also got an MM? In other words, did Davey lead the other NCO, or was the medal awarded to both as they both did it?
  • This is quite possible, even likely, but because the other NCO is not named in the recommendation for Davey, and the way the records are organised by the AWM, this is very difficult to establish. I have checked the war diaries of both the 10th Battalion and 3rd Brigade, but an MM recommendation probably isn't a big enough deal to be mentioned. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:13, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just checking: the paragraph starting "Davey was promoted to corporal" has no cite till we get to the medal citation citation, if you know what I mean. Footnote 13. Since that appears to be an archive that contains the medal citation, can you confirm that it also supports the rest of the paragraph?
  • Very remiss of me, Mike Christie. I have closely cited this para using the war record and Lock.

That's all I can find to comment on; the article is cleanly written and concise. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:38, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look at this one, Mike! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:28, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:20, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Nick-D edit

Great work as always. I have the following comments:

  • Do we know whether Davey served in any of the various pre-war military organisations?
  • His docs say no. But given the enlistment form didn't specifically ask about cadets, it is possible he did the compulsory junior and senior cadet training. It is likely that given he was in Central Australia for some time after he finished school, he was exempt from compulsory service for some of the time before the war. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:17, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and was then embarked to return to Australia the following month" - do we know whether this was due to his wounds, or was this part of the Anzac Leave scheme in which large numbers of the surviving soldiers of 1914 were sent home in about October 1918? (or both?)
  • I suspect it was due to his wounds, which were extensive and severe. His records state "Retd. to Aust per D24 (GSW Back) for furlough", so it is possible he was sent home with the rest of the 10th Battalion originals (regardless of his wounds), but it really seems to be a two-bob each-way situation, and the primary records and secondary sources aren't clear. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:17, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The World War I section seems to be focused on Davey's service record. Can anything be said about his personal experiences and reflections? (for instance, works which draw from letters, family oral history, etc?)
  • I haven't been able to find any. No personal records are held by the AWM or State Library of SA, so that might explain it. If he kept a diary or letters, they may remain in the hands of family members. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:01, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as a labourer and linesman over three periods between 1926 and 1946" - does this mean that he was unable to find secure employment? Nick-D (talk) 22:11, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Specifically, he served with SAR from 1926 to 1938, 1939 to 1942, and 1943 to 1946. So really he was mostly employed by them between 1926 and 1946, with short breaks. It is possible that his health had something to do with the breaks, but I don't have any evidence for that. Do you think I should state the actual dates he was employed by SAR, as they are given by Burness? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:01, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that the dates would be helpful - that's pretty much continuous employment, especially though the Great Depression. Nick-D (talk) 09:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support My comments are now all addressed. This is a great article. Nick-D (talk) 09:10, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source check edit

General comments

  • I'm pretty sure that the Australian Dictionary of Biography is published by the ANU, not the University of Melbourne
  • I think that publishing has actually shifted to the ANU - the suggested citation states that the ANU is the publisher of the online version. MUP is the publisher of the original hard copy version. I'd suggest standardising on the ANU/Canberra if it's the online version you referenced, or MUP/Melbourne if it was the hard copy. Nick-D (talk) 08:52, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • All the sources are reliable, and include pretty much all of the works I'd expect to see on an Australian VC recipient of World War I (ADB, the relevant battalion history, and Wigmore). I'm slightly surprised to not see Bean there, but he may not have added much to the more focused sources.

Spot checks:

  • Ref 5: wording is probably too close to that in the source, please rephrase
  • Ref 12: I can't see where the medal citation is in this source? I'd suggest referencing the Commonwealth Gazette or another source directly.
  • Ref 13: Doesn't provide the date of the ceremony
  • In the header it says "London, Thursday". The paper was published on Friday 13 September, so the ceremony occurred on Thursday 12 September. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:20, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oops, sorry: I missed that Nick-D (talk) 08:52, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 15: Supported by source
  • "Davey had sustained wounds to his back, abdomen and legs, and was evacuated to England" - supported by sources (and a good use of the NAA to augment an ADB entry) Nick-D (talk) 09:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Ian edit

Recusing as coord, just a light copyedit and a few comments/queries:

  • I have to admit I prefer not to see more than three (ideally no more than two) citations in a row, and for the Early life para we have four -- can we not make things a little more granular? This was brought into sharp relief because I was curious about the "at least five sons" bit but I don't want to check up to four refs to see where it comes from and how the source expresses it.
  • I don't think we should be leaving it to the citation to tell us what he did to earn his VC. We briefly describe what he did to earn his MM before quoting the citation, we should be able to do the same for the VC action.
  • What exactly does "the overall 10th Battalion operation" mean? If it's the 10th, why do we say "Australian casualties"? Did the "overall" operation involve other nationalities?

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:59, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review, Ian. Cited the section more closely, added a bit on what the VC was for, and removed overall and Australian. The latter were recent additions that I wasn't 100% happy with, so thanks for pointing them out. Here are my edits. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Tks very much for that PM -- I didn't like the uncertainty of "at least five sons" so replaced with something more definite based on the Chronicle piece, hope you approve but rv if not. I had my say on comprehensiveness and other aspects at the ACR, so happy to support here -- well done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:41, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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