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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Neutral Milk Hotel/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 18 April 2022 [1].

Neutral Milk Hotel edit

Nominator(s): Famous Hobo (talk) 09:24, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Neutral Milk Hotel, an important and influential indie rock band from the late 90s. One thing I should note is that regarding Adam Clair's book, I only own the E-book version which uses Reflowable text, so I can't include specific page numbers. However, I'll be happy to provide the necessary quotes during the FAC process if needed for spotchecking. Famous Hobo (talk) 09:24, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please fix the following harv error: "McGonigal 1998; McGonigal 2008 Harv error: this link doesn't point to any citation." (t · c) buidhe 09:49, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: Fixed Famous Hobo (talk) 10:27, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Wetrorave edit

This is one of those bands that I always tell myself I have to listen to but end up forgetting about hehe. Comments coming soon. Sorry if it seems as if I've read the article in reverse btw. Wetrorave (talk) 18:47, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended content
  • "Neutral Milk Hotel songs explored" - "explored" should be "explore" since the songs do not exist only in the past
  • "other Neutral Milk Hotel recordings" could be reduced to "other recordings of the band"
  • "a subject of debate, however." - Having the 'however' at the end of the sentence rather than at the start feels a bit awkward to read
  • "his subconscious. 'Some of it" - since these two sentences are highly connected, I'd suggest changing them to "his subconscious, saying 'Some of it"
  • "style of songwriting. While the lyrics" - same as above, the full stop could be changed with a semicolon
  • "early music was rough," - could be changed to "was considered rough", or quotation marks could be placed around "rough"
  • "described some of the acoustic songs as 'lifeless acoustic warbles.'" - unnecessary repetition of the word "acoustic", the first use of it could be removed
  • "of the band members. The band members would" - same as above, could be changed to "of the band members, who would often ask"
  • "He then became a vagabond" - what exactly does "vagabond" mean? In my language the word "vagabundo" is associated with negativity towards a person's actions, though this may just be a difference in meaning of two similar-sounding words
  • "including nontraditional rock" - there should be a hyphen in "nontraditional"
  • The Decemberists should not have a capital The, per MOS:THEBAND

These are my comments. The article's overall prose is pretty good, and you could easily get it to FA. Wetrorave (talk) 19:47, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Wetrorave: Addressed each point except the vagabond one. In English, vagabond simply means a person who moves constantly without a home or a job, which in retrospect, doesn't seem to accurately describe that period of Mangum's life. Rereading Adam Clair's book, it appears as though Mangum was never homeless, but was what I would describe as "restless." The dude just didn't like living in one spot for long periods of time for one reason or another. I'll think of something better to replace vagabond and get back to you. Famous Hobo (talk) 16:01, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm I see. It's strange when words from gramatically close languages have different meanings. That definition of the word seems fine for this use, so prose is good. Wetrorave (talk) 19:11, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. A well-written article overall (and a good band overall, just finished listening to ITAOTS and it's... interesting). Wetrorave (talk) 19:11, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by re. ebooks edit

This has come up before. The reason page numbers are required is for reasons of policy rather than internal FAC processes (e.g. spot checks, although of course, they're interrelated), so the current situation—linking to chapters rather than pages—could be unsatisfactory. @WP:FAC coordinators: the relevant discussions are at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive80#When are page numbers needed.... The suggested path forward seems to be to use the |loc= parameter; this will allow either a hyperlink to a page (if available), or a searchable term for the reader to ctrl+f within the document. (I think it was Ealdgyth's suggestion, but as usual with WT:FAC, bugger all consensus was come to!) SN54129 19:36, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant FAC criterion is "claims are verifiable". Personally I would not feel that linking to chapters meets this. There are probably several ways of satisfactorily addressing it, and IMO providing a searchable term per Ealdgyth's suggestion is one of them. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:44, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It depends how long the chapters are whether that is an acceptable solution. I mean, some books have chapters that are like 100 pages long. So if the chapter is pretty short, like 10 pages, that is an acceptable solution although providing a quote might be even better for WP:V. Of you could list the lowest-level subheading that the information is under, since many books have sub-chapter organization. (t · c) buidhe 21:10, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Serial Number 54129, Gog the Mild, and Buidhe: Sorry to ping all three of you, just wasn't sure who to exactly respond to. So I like the idea of including a searchable term. Take for example reference 28. Chapter 11 of Clair's book mentions April 28, 1997 as the start date of the national tour, and then spends the next five paragraphs talking about the growing pains of the members playing in a band. The reference with the search term would look like {{sfn|Clair|2022|loc=Chapter 11 (Search phrase "April 28, 1997")}}. Would this be acceptable? Famous Hobo (talk) 18:28, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
While I can't pre-judge any individual cite, in general terms that seems entirely satisfactory to me. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:41, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's an excellent idea; perhaps use the first sentence of the relevant paragraph? (Or a chunk of it if it's as long as one of mine!) Also, try and avoid using particularly common forms of words, as they might appear multiple times. I really do think this needs codification though, @WP:FAC coordinators: , as it's a situation that's only going to increase in frequency, and we should have an across-the-board to approach rather than on discrete FACs. SN54129 18:09, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure codification would be the right way to address this problem. The FAC criteria are not that specific when it comes to the exact citation style because we recognize there are multiple correct ways to do citations. (t · c) buidhe 01:27, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is about WP:V, not cosmetics such as citation style. SN54129 12:07, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the way, @WP:FAC coordinators: , could one of you advise Wetrorave not to bold both of his "supports" (once in the section heading, and once in his review)? The nominations reviewer script reads that as two opposes rather one, due to the bolding, and as such misleads on the main FAC page. Cheers, SN54129 20:28, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Wetrorave (talk) 20:49, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm aware of this problem, but a lot of people do this not realizing it throws off the script... I don't think there is technically any rule against it. (t · c) buidhe 01:26, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

  • I think the dates should be given in the first or second sentence -- even if it's as vague as "late 1980s" and "2015, most recently" or something like that -- we need some sort of framing.
Added a sentence to the lede
  • Our article on the Casio digital horn says that noone but Neutral Milk Hotel calls it a zanzithophone. I don't know if that's true, but unless we've some evidence that the term is in use I think we shouldn't use the word (even linked) as if it were something some general readers might understand. Perhaps call it a Casio digital horn, with a footnote giving the band's name for it. I see you have it the other way round in the body, but I think in the lead we have to be clearer. In the body you could call it by either name with a parenthesis giving the other.
Changed zanzithophone to Digital Horn, as that appears to be the proper title of the instrument (including the capitalization). Slightly altered the footnote pertaining to the instrument
  • "the band's newfound stardom through the Internet": "stardom" seems too strong a word, judging by what I read in the article on In the Aeroplane Over the Sea.
Reworded
Done
  • "overcame his apprehensions of the music industry": I don't think this works, because "apprehension" can mean "understanding", and with "of" that's the more natural way to parse this. Perhaps "apprehensiveness about the music industry"?
Reworded
  • I seem to recall there's a MoS rule about this, but shouldn't it be "The Apples in Stereo" inline, if you're going to link the "the"? Or else "the Apples in Stereo"? But it appears the band name does include the "The".
So admittedly I'm also confused about this. According to MOS:THEBAND, the word "the" should not be capitalized, and should only be linked if the word consistently appears on releases (which it does)
  • "how he felt he was being led down a different life than he was supposed to live": I had to read this a couple of times to make sense of it. I think it means something like "how he felt circumstances/chance/something was leading him down a path in which he wasn't living the life he felt he should be living"; that's clumsily phrased but I think that's what's meant. If so I think it needs rephrasing.
Reworded and added a quote to clear up some confusion
  • "to improve upon the lo-fi sound of On Avery Island": is "improve" the right word? No doubt the fidelity was better for the second album, but the lo-fi sound of the first album wasn't a mistake, so I think this is a misleading word choice. I see a couple of sentences further down that "lo-fi" is still being used to describe In the Aeroplane Over the Sea, too, which makes it more confusing to say "improve".
Reworded
  • "who would often ask some audience members if they could spend the night at their house": was this as a sort of performance art or were they really looking for somewhere to crash?
No they just needed somewhere to crash. They were kinda broke. Being an indie rock musicians in the late 90s wasn't a particularly profitable career choice
Can we make this clearer to the reader? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:16, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reworded, although I think it looks a bit clumsy. What do you think?
I tried a rephrase. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:54, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "while others perpetuated hoaxes around what might have happened": vague, and do you mean "perpetrated"? Perpetuate implies that the hoax already existed. Either way a bit more specificity would be good.
Added more details according to the source
  • "The large response helped": I don't know what "The large response" refers to. The previous sentence talks about fan anger and hoaxes. Do you mean something like "The speculation and online discussions raised the profile of the band, to the point that Neutral Milk Hotel and, in particular, In the Aeroplane Over the Sea gained..."?
Reworded
  • "became incredibly passionate": "incredibly" is a bit non-encyclopedic, though if you can find a quote that says something like this that would work.
Reworded
  • "Neutral Milk Hotel was known for its experimental sound": surely "is known"?
Whoops, got too caught up with making sure to refer to the band in the past tense that I let that one slip through
  • "As the song progressed, more instruments could be introduced": I think "would be" or "were" rather than "could be", unless I'm missing some nuance here.
Reworded the sentence. I wanted to make sure not to specify that every NMH song builds up with more instruments, but a good chunk of them do
  • "Neutral Milk Hotel's early music": I don't know what "early music" refers to -- there are only two albums, only separated by two years. Or is the distinction between those two albums as the early music, and Ferris Wheel on Fire and the live sets of 2013-2015? The quote from Mark Richardson implies we're talking about pre-album material, but that doesn't seem to be generally available, so I'm not clear what's being discussed.
So early music in this case refers to recordings made prior to the first album. Not all of these recordings are availble, but the demo album Hype City Soundtrack and the 1994 song "Everything Is" is available. I changed "early music" to "early recordings"
Now we have "Neutral Milk Hotel's early recordings was considered rough, and featured a considerable amount of distortion": how about "Neutral Milk Hotel's early recordings, prior to On Avery Island, featured a considerable amount of distortion and are considered rough". It needs to be "were", not "was", and reversing the order gives the description before the opinion which makes more sense; and I think "prior to On Avery Island" or something similar would clarify what "early" means. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:09, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reworded
  • Why isn't Ferris Wheel on Fire included in the discography? I see from the discography article that it's just an EP, but you describe it as a boxed set?
So Ferris Wheel on Fire is an EP of unreleased songs that was bundled with the boxset, which is mentioned in the Reunion section. Per WP:WPMAG, articles about musicians and bands should generally only include studio albums in the discography section, which is why Ferris Wheel on Fire isn't included
  • You're inconsistent with the tense you use to describe critics' opinions: "Kim Cooper cites" but "DeRogatis described", for example. I think present tense would be the best choice.
Pretty sure I changed every instance of past tense to present tense in regards to critics' opinions
  • "have labeled In the Aeroplane Over the Sea as a concept album": I'd make it either "have labeled In the Aeroplane Over the Sea a concept album" or "have described In the Aeroplane Over the Sea as a concept album".
Reworded
  • Any chance of more recent sales numbers than 2013 for In the Aeroplane Over the Sea? Understandable if nothing is available.
Yeah, sadly 2013 seems to be the most recent update
  • "publishing emphatic reports on his life": I don't know what "emphatic" is intended to mean here. Strongly-worded? Forceful? Neither seems likely.
Changed to detailed

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:03, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: Oh god, it's been a while. Real life problems and all that jazz. But I finally took care of the issues you brought up, or at the very least answered them. Famous Hobo (talk) 12:32, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, I understand about real life. I've struck a few that I could check quickly; will look at the others this evening. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:16, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of points outstanding above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:09, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike Christie: Responded to the remaining points. Famous Hobo (talk) 13:06, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:54, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from 100cellsman edit

The only thing I suggest is unlinking "the" in the blue link for the Apples In Stereo. Otherwise I support this nomination. Nice work! 웃OO 08:23, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Media review edit

  • File:NeutralMilkHotel-InTheAeroplaneOverTheSea.ogg: part of the FUR refers to a different band/article - possibly it was copied from another work? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:59, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Yeah, that's on me. I got lazy and copied part of the FUR from a Radiohead article. Fixed now. Famous Hobo (talk) 01:31, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Since nobody else has stepped up to do the sr here, I will. Hog Farm Talk 23:30, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • "In the Aeroplane Over the Sea emphasizes structure and texture, and tracks seamlessly segue into one another" - attribution to source needed
Added
  • "His lyrics were surreal and opaque, and feature a stream of consciousness style of songwriting" - attribution to source also needed here
Added
  • "Anon. (n.d.). "On Avery Island". AllMusic. Archived from the original on January 22, 2021. Retrieved December 19, 2020." - source gives Ankeny as the author, this shouldn't be cited as "Anon.", unless you're citing the user review below, in which case that isn't an acceptable source.
So I use this source to cite the release date for the Fire Records edition of On Avery Island, which is September 30, 1996. It says it in the side bar, which from my understanding, is acceptable according to WP:RSMUSIC as I'm not sourcing a genre from the side bar (for reference, it is the second entry in source 19 in the "On Avery Island and expansion to a quartet" subsection). Since I'm not 100 percent sure Ankeny wrote the side bar information, I left it as Anon, although I can change it if need be. I can also find another source for the release date.
Okay. The uses of anon is appropriate in that case. Hog Farm Talk 23:29, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • AllMusic has been debated back and forth before. I think the stuff it's being used for here is okay, given that you're not citing biographical or band history details, rather just review components
I personally think it's acceptable, but that's a discussion for another time. Like you said, I didn't cite the biographical details from AllMusic, just release dates and critic opinions.
  • WP:RSP lists Vice as being of debatable reliability, what makes it high-quality RS for FAC purposes?
Removed the first instance of Vice, but left the second one. That's a interview, and the subjects interviewed directly reference that they were influenced by Neutral Milk Hotel.
  • Newsweek is known to have gone into great decline after 2013 due to a new owner who introduced bad editorial practices. What makes a 2018 Newsweek piece high-quality RS?
Replaced

Other sources look reliable enough for the subject matter. Did a handful of spot checks that didn't flag up anything. Hog Farm Talk 23:49, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: Thank you for the source reveiw! Left comments for each point. Famous Hobo (talk) 08:49, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Passing sr with the caveat that this isn't a subject I'm overly familiar with. Hog Farm Talk 23:31, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Z1720 edit

Non-expert prose review. Some comments below:

  • "He moved to Athens and played" Since Athens, Greece, is the more popular city internationally, I suggest changing this to "He moved to Athens, Georgia, and played"
Changed
  • "was also a bass guitarist for the Apples in Stereo," The Apples's article capitalises "The" so I would do the same here.
Per MOS:THEBAND, "the" should not be captitalized in this situation
  • I checked the lede and infobox, and all of that information is in the article.

Those are my thoughts. Z1720 (talk) 15:23, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: Thanks for the comments! Responded to them accordingly. Famous Hobo (talk) 21:56, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. My concerns have been addressed. Z1720 (talk) 02:04, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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