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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Murder of Marwa El-Sherbini/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 17:10, 14 May 2010 [1].

Murder of Marwa El-Sherbini edit

Murder of Marwa El-Sherbini (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Mootros (talk) 16:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I suspect the article may meet the required criteria. I look forward to hear your comments. Many thanks. Yours, Mootros (talk) 16:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Fixed by adding relevant new source. Mootros (talk) 17:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have contacted Tschild about this FA. I had also tried to contact the user about the previous GA in March, but there was not response despite other ongoing contributions by Tschild. Mootros (talk) 18:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. This is an interesting article. The story is well told, the wikilinks are useful and not overly abundant, and the references are nicely formatted. The prose, however, is not quite polished; it needs a fair amount of copyediting to fix grammar and punctuation problems. I would be happy to help with this, but my time here will be quite limited over the next two weeks. A post at the talk page of the relevant wikiprojects might garner a faster response. Maralia (talk) 03:42, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I'll place a request at the talkpage of the crime project. Mootros (talk) 08:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments:
    • Images are all good with valid licenses
    • The chronology is not maintained in the lead. The sentencing part should come after the discussion of the trial.
    • "She was stabbed by a man against whom she had testified in..." Name of the murderer is needed in the lead. Noting the German ethnicity of the man is also important as ethnicity also may be a reason of anti-German protests
    • "German government issued a statement more than a week after the incident had happened." is too ambiguous. What kind of statement? criticizing the man, sympathizing with the victim? What?
    • The article is "Murder of Marwa El-Sherbini", not Marwa El-Sherbini. So the title "Early Life" becomes ambiguous. The victim's or the man's early life? Think of an appropriate title
    • Is his name officially "Alexander Wiens" (used by the unformatted news link in Note 1) or "Alex Wiens"?
    • So far what I can see German authorities refer to him as Alex Wiens. Someone mentioned that Russian news papers called him Alexander. It's not entirely clear and I speculated he was named Alexander but when for official purposes had his name transliterated in Germany he put down Alex. Hence the fact the court calls him like this. I have seen any source about. Mootros (talk) 10:03, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Inconsistency in Verbal abuse and court case for defamation in using the Euro sign and spelling

--Redtigerxyz Talk 15:41, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Review by Charles Edward

Hello! This is an interesting article to read. I am not previously familiar with the topic, and do have a few comments and questions.

General
    • "Following anti-German sentiments and public protests in Egypt and other countries, the German government issued a statement more than a week after the incident had happened." ... saying what? Please consider rephrasing, this does not flow particularly well.
    • "Academic commentators later described this as an example of mass media miscommunication between cultures." which commentators? This does not really make any sense to me, "mass media miscommuinication between cultures" Maybe more clearly explain what is meant. This is also not discussed in the body.
    • See last section. Removed from lead, because it's misleading with the German government statement there. Mootros (talk) 20:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The subsequent trial for murder and attempted murder occurred under strict security measures and was observed by national and international media, diplomats and legal experts." what was verdict was (that should be in the lead for sure)?
    • The lead should include more information: who was her killer? What was his motivation? How was he apprehended? Point out it was her husband who was also wounded, not just "another person", explain how he was apprehended.
    • Did the murder have a lawyer at the trial for the original swing incident or was the arguments his own?
    • This is not known. The source states "he claimed". I guess he had a lawyer as this is required I think, but he himself just said this. I'm speculating. I'll look into the requirements for representation in district courts in Germany, but it will not tell us what happened there unless we find the court record. Mootros (talk) 15:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • From what I understand here [2], it was probably not required to have representation. I don't think Wiens had a lawyer has he was on benefits and granted a public defender for the appeal case. But there is not source yet... Mootros (talk) 16:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "After El-Sherbini had testified, Wiens tried to ask additional questions about her right to be in Germany, but was overruled." - was she a legal resident of the country? This deserves an answer here, since it is an allegation. At least explain why the judge overruled.
    • Done, completely rewritten. I guess the question ["why there at all] was too generic, arguably in conflict with Informational_self-determination kind of right to privacy, but it's not known how the judge reasoned Mootros (talk) 21:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The article says the husband was stabbed in the head sixteen times, and then nothing more. Was he hospitalized? Were his wounds severe? It also speaks of the child being injured, but gives no details on the nature of the injury.
    • See end of section. Nothing know about the child. Mootros (talk) 22:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Continuing with noncompliant and destructive behaviour, he was temporarily restrained by up to nine security officers." So was it nine offices that restrained him temporarily, or nine officers at different times that restrained him, or up to nine but the exact number is not known? I suggest a rephrase here to be more clear.
    • "It meant that Wiens received the maximum sentence for this crime.", I suggest integrating this with the sentence about his sentencing. (lol! thats an interesting pun)
  • In the lead, the the event is called a hate crime, but it is not called a hate crime or discussed in this context in the body.
    • Done. I.e. discrimination on grounds of race. Mootros (talk) 22:13, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am still a a little torn on the use of this term based on whats been presented. Maybe another reviewer will weigh in with an opinion. To call something a crime indicates a law was broken. So there would have to be hate crimes laws in place in Germany for this to have been a hate crime, in a legal sense, which I think is how most people would interpret the use of the term hate crime. But from what I understand, he was convicted only of "heinous murder". So.. I think it is important to make that clarification in the article, that while his crime would be a "hate crime" in some nations, it was not in the legal sense of Germany a hate crime. Perhaps rephrasing to a "crime committed out of hate". Personally, the more specific the better I think, so maybe even "a crime committed because of his hate for Muslims" or "non-Germans" or whatever the most specific cause was. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 21:07, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Looking at this again. Yes that is a valid point you have raised. I have changed this now accordingly. Mootros (talk) 22:47, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Query: Are there hate crime statutes in Germany, or is this just a phrase being employed? Was he actually convicted of a "hate crime" or just murder? The article only says murder, so in that context, hate crime may be an inappropriate here. Likewise, there is some indication the man was mentally unstable, in which case the crime more likely occurred because of his lunacy. Just be sure the correct terms, as are being employed by the sources, are used in the article. I detect a little ambiguity right now regarding the terms. (I can't read German or I would read the sources myself!)
    • No hate crime but murder with the formal qualification "heinous" (Besondere Schwere der Schuld) Mootros (talk) 14:56, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "On 11 November 2009, Wiens was found guilty of the murder of El-Sherbini and the attempted murder of Okaz, and sentenced to life imprisonment." - in the notes it is pointed out a life sentence tends to be 18-25 years in Germany. It might be worth saying this inline.
    • I've expanded note 6. A life life sentence is for life, but time could spent outside prison with certain obligation and under certain conditions. Mootros (talk) 14:56, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Prose
    • "Other noteworthy characteristics of this murder...", this is not really in an encyclopedic tone; instead the article should pointedly state the noteworthy facs, rather than have to point it out directly. If they were not noteworthy, then they would not be in the article. I would take "Other noteworthy" off the lead of the sentence. Check out WP:TONE and WP:EDITORIAL
    • The lead treats the incident in a very abstract way. Example, "...the criminal offence was committed in front of a child, while also attacking another person who tried to intervene." Perhaps be more clear "...Alex Wiens murdered El-Sherbini in front of her child and then attacked and wounded her husband as he attempted to intervene." Crimes don't commit themselves, don't be afraid to point to the perpetrator and use names. Likewise, the fact that it was her child and husband are important to know.
    • Done? 23:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
    • There are several uses of "in addition to" and "also"; these can mostly be removed.
    • Done.22:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
    • "In Egypt, there was considerable public and media attention on the hate crime aspect of the offence.", poor grammar, try to rephrase. maybe "The Egyptian public and media focused attention on the hate crime."
    • "She was stabbed by a man against whom she had testified in a criminal case for verbal abuse about wearing an Islamic headscarf." - was the case about verbal abuse, or was it about wearing a head scarf? Or was the verbal abuse about the headscarf? I suggest a rephrase here for clarity's sake.
    • The prose of the lead is atrocious. I suggest a total rewrite, focus on removing vagaries and being specific, including more key elements of the article, and only including information which is within the body.
    • "On 21 August 2008, he shouted abuse at El-Sherbini...", he shouted the word "abuse"? (of course not) maybe be more specific here. Its more common to use the term "verbal abuse" in this context as well.
    • "...in a quarrel over the use of a swing by his niece and El-Sherbini's son." Perhaps this should come before the other information. I suggest explaining how the two met, at the playground, then how the quarrel arose, then the abuse that occurred. It reads a bit backwards now, with the climax coming first, more like a news story.
    • Very good point. Well spotted -- I now think that there should be a short section about Wiens similar to El-Sherbini's. Mootros (talk) 15:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done, changed narrative and added new section. Mootros (talk) 17:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It talks alot about what he said to her.. but what did she say or do to him in the original incident? Its a little unusual (unless the man was deranged) to go on a verbal attack spree because his kid didn't get his fair share of time on a swing.
    • Done. From my reading, once the insults started during the quarrel, she was talking to bystanders trying to get a mobile phone and than on the phone to the police. I've now expanded this section with all this. Mootros (talk) 18:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "...Wiens was trailed by the district court." maybe instead "trialed". That is not the best term here though. Maybe "was put on trial".
    • Trialled by the court is rather formal in BE whereas put on trial not, I say. Mootros (talk) 15:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Okaz, widower of El-Sherbini, testified" - we already know he is her widower, that can be removed
    • "The fact that El-Sherbini's husband..." Rephrase so you don't have to say "The fact", avoid editorializing.
    • There are many other places the prose can be improved. I suggest a good copy edit throughout. This is what is really holding the article back at this point.
Citations needed
    • "Prosecutors cited perfidiousness and malice (based on hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims) as qualifying characteristics for the murder charge."
    • "...because when he entered the room "Elwy Okaz and Alex Wiens were both covered in blood and Elwy Okaz had just managed to grab the handle of the knife with his hand, making it appear as though he was the attacker"."
References
    • Ref #7-d, 33, 50, 51 are not following punctuation points
    • I am not entirely sure what you mean. Mootros (talk) 15:49, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Citations should not appear mid sentance, unless following a comma or semicolen. They should only come after punctuations points. Check out Wikipedia:Cite#Summary for a detailed explanation of that guideline. There are occasions when exceptions to that rule are allowable, but it is not common.
    • Note #1 has a link that is not formatted. ( it needs accessdate, title, publisher?)
    • This is a persistent problem. We found that this is technically not possible to insert this in the conventional way. I'll try to think of an alternative. :) Mootros (talk) 18:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't speak German, but most of the reference (appear to me) to not include an author. Please make sure that the author information is being employed as it is available
    • Not being familiar with German, I can't speak to the reliability of all the sources, but some I am familiar with, like Der Spiegel. For the most part, the sources appear reliable to me.
  • Images
    • Is it possible to get an image of either the victim, murderer, or both? Those would add tremendous value to the article.
    • Yes, I agree. 15:49, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
    • All images check out, pd, etc.
  • Oppose for now I have to oppose. There are some minor MOS issues, the big issue for me is the prose. Its very rough in places, particularly the lead, and there is awkward phrasing throughout. If you can address these issues I'd be glad to make a second reading and reconsider. Great job so far with this article, I can see you've put alot of time into it and it is a very thought-provoking and disturbing topic. Keep up the good work and it will be of FA quality soon enough! :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 19:00, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you kindly for your detailed comments and feedback! I'll see how much I can turn this around within this candidature. Mootros (talk) 09:47, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! I see you have done a good job addressing many of my specific concerns. I still find the prose to be a little rough in places. If I have time before the review closes I will try to copy edit it for you. I encourage you to reach out to other editors to give you hand in copyeditting. Here is a good place to start: WP:COPYEDITORS. I still think it is short of prose standards needed to pass this review. I find copy editting to be the hardest part of writing a featured article, but take heart, sometimes it just takes a couple attempts to get there. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 21:07, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I share Charles Edward's view of the prose, which is rather awkward in many places. I'm afraid I think that the article needs a serious amount of rewriting.
    • Thank you for your feedback. You mean copy editing rather than rewriting, do you? Mootros (talk) 15:49, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I mean that I think most sentences need to be rewritten. You may call that copyediting if you please. Malleus Fatuorum 16:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A few examples:

    • "He declared that German people should not mingle with foreigners, and his voting intention for the far right National Democratic Party of Germany." Does that mean he declared his intention to vote for the NDP?
    • "After El-Sherbini had testified, the judge asked whether there are further questions." Are further questions?
    • "... in such a forceful and sudden manner that resulted in an absence of defensive injuries."
    • "Wiens' defence counsel tried to help El-Sherbini by obstructing Wiens with chairs and a table. Her three-year-old son was injured while being ushered to safety." Whose son are we talking about here? The defence counsel's?
    • "... the judge who had presided the trial on 1 July 2009". Presided over?
    • "On the beginning of the third day of the trial ...". At the beginnning?
Done. Mootros (talk) 15:49, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Closing arguments were held on 9 and 10 November 2009." Closing arguments were heard?
    • "... Wiens injured himself in a fit of rage by throwing his head against a table." So he has a detachable head?
    • "... because the offence was accomplished in front of the child". Offences aren't accomplished, they're carried out.
    • "In line with common practice regarding reporting in the German media about crime and legal proceedings, El-Sherbini referred to as "32[sic]-year old" witness in a Deutschlandfunk report for Tagesschau on 1 July." Are there a couple of words missing here? Was referred to as ...?

Malleus Fatuorum 13:28, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Almost three weeks, no support. Please take a few weeks, work on issues raised, make sure previous opposers are satisfied, and come back with a fresh start in a few weeks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:03, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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