Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mr. Dooley/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12:20, 6 August 2016 [1].

Mr. Dooley edit

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 03:08, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... a fictional Irish-American bartender who was very real to those who lived in the Progressive Era. Mr. Dooley, whose homespun wisdom was generated by journalist Finley Peter Dunne, was noted for sayings that outlasted their creator, such as "the Supreme Court follows the election returns" and "politics ain't bean-bag". I'd like to read what he would have to say about the current campaign. I discovered Mr. Dooley in law school, and was surprised we had no article. Enjoy.Wehwalt (talk) 03:08, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination added early by agreement with a coordinator, for the record.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:10, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support By way of disclosure, I did the DYK review, which I have linked here because it covered checkpoints that I already did, such as sourcing and copyvio tool checks. Additionally, the images are all public domain. I have reviewed all the edits done since the June 14 DYK approval. Most of those edits are stylistic changes, the way an editor does when they want the final product to be as tightly written as possible. Some inline citations have been added. I stick by what I said at DYK - the subject of this article is a wonderful piece of Americana, presented in a very enjoyable and professional style. — Maile (talk) 20:21, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the review, support, and thoughtful comments. I'm glad, in any case, that a hole in our encyclopedia has been fixed, and we now have a Mr. Dooley article!--05:37, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Image review

  • File:Finley_Peter_Dunne_Vanity_Fair_27_July_1905.jpg needs a US PD tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Added, thank you for the image review.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:40, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – I peer reviewed the article and was v. happy with it. Both pleasurable and instructive to read. Certainly meets FA criteria, in my view. – Tim riley talk 13:13, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Much obliged, both for the support and for the comments at PR.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:09, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (Brianboulton): I missed the peer review, but am reading through now. As usual I have a few prose/punc quibbles, but not much else (I rather like Mr Dooley) Here are my comments on the lead and opening sections:

Lead
  • "and then again" → "and again"
  • "Dunne's essays, which contain the bartender's commentary on a topic (often national or international affairs)..." – "topics" rather than "a topic" which might suggest that all essays dealt with the same topic. Or perhaps replace "topics" with "issues"?
  • "who in the columns owned..." → " who in the columns owns..."
  • I am very dubious of the hyphen in the noun form of "little-noticed"
  • Is "mostly only" acceptable? Seems a bit like "fairly unique" or similar formations.
  • "Due to" always jars. Could this become "through"
  • "hobnobbed with presidents": I don't think that "hobnobbed" is encyclopedic (the Oxford Dictionary styles it as "informal"). And did Dunne mix with presidents other than Roosevelt?
Harding. I've cut the phrase though.
Genesis
  • Semicolon in first line of second para should be a colon
  • "another dialect column" → "a second dialect column", maybe?
  • The parenthetical note "(in all columns but the first, McNeery)" would be clearer as "(in all columns thereafter spelt "McNeery")
  • A second "due to" could be "because of"
  • This sentence seems oddly constructed: "This local fame came with some annoyance to McNeery's real-life analogue, McGarry, who found himself called McNeery, and even stared at by a Swedish immigrant, held by Chicago Irish in disdain". I'd be inclined to drop the staring Swede as inconsequential, and shorten to: "This local fame caused annoyance to McNeery's real-life analogue, McGarry, who found himself called McNeery and held in disdain by the Chicago Irish community".
You misunderstand. It is the Swedes who were looked down upon by the Irish. This helps explain why McGarry took offense.
  • Needs an "and" before "threatening"
  • "as is" should surely be "as was"?
This may be an Atlantic divide, but "as is", at least to my ear, can be used in the past tense, as in "He kept it as is".
  • "McGarry spoke in a heavy brogue, as did his analogue; this was retained in the move to Bridgeport". I'm confused by this sentence; you have previously used "analogue" to refer to the real-life equivalent, now you appear to be reversing the usage. This muddles the mind. It would be simpler to say that McNeery's heavy brogue was retained in the move.
Local man of wisdom
  • "doling out courage by the drink" – could you be clearer as to what is meant by this phrase?
I suppose it is unlikely that anyone heard rebel gunfire while under Dooley-induced influence. Cut.
  • "the home and church" → "home and church"
  • Some tense inconsistencies, e.g. "He interested himself...", "was mentioned...", "He remains..."
Dooley's backstory is in the past tense, what happens "live" in the columns is present.
  • "Dunne biographer Elmer Ellis..." I'm aware of AmEng usage, but still feel that "Dunne's biographer" would suit better, as Ellis was many other things besides.
I've changed it, but note there there is no room for Ellis's bio in either case.
  • "tries to beat some decency into the sodden Grady" – is "beat" meant to be taken literally here?
Yes. I could say "with his fists", but I'd rather not.
  • "made off" → "made of"

More to follow: Brianboulton (talk) 16:59, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that. I am glad you like Mr. Dooley. I've done those not noted.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:56, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

More:

Mr. Dooley in war
  • Nothing (I made one punc adjustment)
Mr. Dooley in peace
  • It's that hyphen again: "becoming well-known" → "becoming well known"
  • "He then lacked access..." reads ambiguously and would be clearer as "At the time he lacked access..."
National sage
  • "ill-suited" → "ill suited" (One of my authorities for this hyphen pedantry is The Chicago Manual of Style, of which Mr. Dooley was no doubt a sedulous adherent)
  • "a role slightly greater than that in his actual book" – this looks like a sly dig at the immodest Teddy – appreciated, but not really appropriate unless a source made this observation.
Dooley makes the point more than the source, for that is the whole point of what Dooley said. Roosevelt is called ambitious and self-promoting, in a nice way now alas lost. Another joke about Roosevelt's book is that the typesetter ran out of capital I's, but I don't think that derives from Dooley.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:00, 23 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in late 1901 when he..." – the pronoun would be better as "the president"
  • Sorry to be so persistent, but do we hyphenate "African-Americans"? Our own article thinks not.
Slow decline
  • "it was finding that inspiration" – perhaps "that initial inspiration"? And comma required after "compose", later in the same sentence.
  • I'm not clear how "unwritten columns" could cause conflict with the syndicators.
  • "these did not generate a great deal of interest." Not clear what "these" refers to. Can you clarify?
  • "Dunne was encouraged enough to agree, in 1926, to do a regular Dooley piece for the weekly Liberty magazine". What was the basis of this encouragement, given what appears to be rather negative backdrop? Perhaps "Dunne was persuaded, in 1926..." etc

Concluding on Sunday, I hope. Brianboulton (talk) 21:03, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the gift of your time. I am up to date I think.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:10, 23 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A few final crumbs:

Language and technique
  • The opening sentence of the third paragraph, beginning: "The question then arises..." seems to be written in an editorial voice, along the lines of "It should be noted that..." etc as per WP:EDITORIAL. This should be neutralised.
  • The syntax of "whether he is intended to actually believe that he is a cousin of Admiral Dewey..." is hard to follow and could be simplified to "whether he actually believes that..." etc
  • "attributes quotations he has heard without attribution..." – can we resolve the repetition?
  • "He wrote that Mr. Dooley is intended to be the opposite of the well-informed citizen sought by the Progressive Movement, and that his comments contain more truth than he knows". That sentence would make more sense to me if the "and" became a "yet" or even a "but".
I think it's OK as is. Both parts of the sentence paint Mr. Dooley as ignorant, and there's not enough contrast to justify a "but" or "yet".
I do see a significant contrast – overt ignorance versus unconscious wisdom. But I won't press the point. Brianboulton (talk) 09:08, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "barkeep"? Is that an accepted contraction of "barkeeper" which you have used previously?
Legacy and remembrance
  • "not essential to the popularity" – something like "not essential to the originals' popularity", for clarity

Very interesting insight into your favoured Progressive Era. (Dooley on Trump would be educational). Brianboulton (talk) 14:44, 24 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you indeed. I've done those except as noted. Yes, we sorely need Dooley, for many things.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:53, 24 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Timely and fascinating, a true original for the FA stable. Brianboulton (talk) 09:08, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you indeed.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:24, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Gerda edit

I enjoyed the article earlier, but gave it a closer look now. Only tidbits:

Genesis - is that a good section header?
Changed to Beginnings.
  • "This local fame came with some annoyance to McNeery's real-life analogue, McGarry, who found himself called McNeery, and even stared at by a Swedish immigrant, a people held by Chicago Irish in disdain." - Can we say "immigrant, a people"?
Do you mean exclude Swedish? That he was Swedish is what offended McGarry, not that he was an immigrant.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it's just my limited English, - I'd have difficulty to connect the plural "people" to the singular "Swedish immigrant". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:11, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to "nationality".--Wehwalt (talk) 15:14, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Local man of wisdom (1893–98)
  • After the "Ireland" of his birthplace, there should be a comma, but I wouldn't know where to put it.
  • "He is suspicious of or hostile towards men" - probably correct, but I had to read twice.
  • "Commerce from the fair" - when I read that I had forgotten that it was the World's Columbian Exposition, - perhaps another link? Why a redirect anyway?
Mr. Dooley in peace (1898–1900)
  • "only 5 of the 31 "peace" essays dealt only with the affairs of that neighborhood" - please check double only and it's position.

Thank you for the quote "We need to know that this precocious son of Irish immigrants—those despised bottom-rung unwashed of mid-nineteenth century—somehow developed a voice that was unique and strong ..."! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:56, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome. I was not certain how I wanted to end the article, but I came to like it more ... I think I've done as you suggested except as noted.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:11, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the review and support.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:14, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Mr._Dooley/archive1&oldid=1138467272"