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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mozart family Grand Tour

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 22:50, 25 November 2008 [1].

Mozart family Grand Tour edit

Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk)

I am nominating this article, the first of a short series dealing with the youthful Mozart. This one covers the family's Grand Tour of the European capitals, 1763–66. Mozart was seven when the tour began and ten when it ended, and it saw his development from an infant prodigy performer to an accomplished composer across a range of genre. Thanks to those who have assisted this article's progress thus far. "Mozart in Italy" comes next, by the way. Brianboulton (talk) 23:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support I peer reviewed this article and made the map of the tour, and find it meets all the FA criteria. I do have a few minor quibbles on rereading it.

  • Augsberg is a redirect - the article is "Augsburg" and that is the name I know the city by (and I imagine is the name most would know the city by). Is there any reason for using the alternate name?
  • The next extended stop was at Mainz, from which the family took a boat journey down the Main to Frankfurt, where several public concerts were given. Frankfurt is on the Main River upstream from Mainz, so should it be "journey up the Main"?
  • I do not always understand the MOS here, but it seems this is a complete sentence in a quote and the full stop / period should be inside the quotation marks: "Howbeit, neither mine host nor the postmaster are to be contented with kisses".[28]
  • Would it make sense to give translations of this Très mediocre – Un miserable italien detestable – Asini tutti – Un racleur (a scratcher) – Rotten.[69] in the footnote, perhaps?

Well done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Thank you for these comments. I have fixed the first three. With regard to the translations, with the exception of the "scratcher" my thought was that Leopold's meanings were pretty clear, even untranslated, and I didn't want to patronise readers by appearing to assume they wouldn't understand. However, if you think the footnote important, I'll add it. Brianboulton (talk) 10:22, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for the other fixes. I do not speak French or Italian. I know tres is very. It took me a while to figure out tutti is all (from tutti frutti ice cream, then recalled it is also used in music). I am guessing Asini is something like ass(es). My guess is most people will have to guess, but I am fine with leaving this for others to weigh in on. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 14:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Can I please use the tutti example in my class? That is priceless. Using what we know to figure out what we don't. I'm still smiling. Awadewit (talk)
          • Sure, feel free. "All fruit" ice cream - yum yum. ;-) I guess my point is that while some will know right away, there may me be many who do not. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I've put the footnote translations in. I can't help feeling the insults have more bite in their original form, but please feel free to use them in any way you think appropriate. Brianboulton (talk) 10:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

  • You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE#Citation templates.
  • What makes http://www.classical.net/music/composer/works/mozart/ a reliable source?
    • There are three Köchel catalogues on the web. By far the best is the Mozart Forum one, here, but this site appears to be run by a group of amateur enthusiasts on a kind of chatroom basis, so I imagined it would not pass muster. The other one also seems like the work of an amateur compiler. That left ClassicalNet, which is a commercial but professionally run site with a wide range of musical information. I can easily replace the web source with a printed one, but that would be less accessible to the reader. But what if I transfer ClassicalNet (or the Mozart Forum) to External links, and use a printed Köchel as the main source? Brianboulton (talk) 17:04, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I wasn't aware that Classical.net was commercial, which makes it slightly more reliable (in my mind at least) but I think your solution is probably the best one, or you can double cite it. Do the printed for ultra-reliablity and the online for us lazy folks. Sorry this took a few, I'm still recovering from the show last weekend, I've picked up some sort of crud or something. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've done what you suggest and double-cited. Sorry about the crud - a plague on both your horses?? (ho ho ho) Brianboulton (talk) 10:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support — I helped copyedit this article a few days ago, and I found little to fault. I was especially impressed by the prose, which is clearly up to standards. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - All images have descriptions and verifiable licenses. Awadewit (talk) 01:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - (Note: I peer reviewed this article.) It is so refreshing to have a classical music article! This is a comprehensive, well-researched, wonderfully written, and excellently illustrated article. Mozart had a riveting life and this taste of it is carefully and evocatively explained. I particularly like the quotations from the Mozarts themselves. Awadewit (talk) 04:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalization of title - IMO 'Mozart family Grand Tour' (MfGT) needs to be changed to 'Mozart family grand tour' (Mfgt). The Grand Tour, as explained in that article, has a specific meaning. In the case of the Mozart family, they did a grand tour, not the Grand Tour. Regards. --Kleinzach 00:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am in two minds about this. I agree the family did not do the cultural "Grand Tour" as described in the article of that name. On the other hand, my main sources use the capitalized form (Blom excepted). The family tour was a tremendously important event in Mozart's development. When I tried out the non-capitalized form as the title of this article, it looked wrong - the title had lost force, and the tour seemed minor and perfunctory. So while not arguing against your reasoning, my own preference would be to leave the capitals, in compliance with the main sources. I would be interested to have the views of others, however. Brianboulton (talk) 01:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since the majority of the sources use "Grand Tour" as discussed here and in the peer review, I am fine with the current title's capitalization, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do the sources use the same capitalization rules as WP? (A print editor could probably opt for an unproblematic MFGT.) --Kleinzach 01:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let's follow the sources. Wikipedia's MOS is ever-changing anyway. :) Awadewit (talk) 02:22, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not aware of MOS changing on article title capitalization. Following the sources on facts is fine. Following the sources on copyediting styles really isn't the way things are done here. --Kleinzach 02:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, the matter is not that clear-cut. MOS says, in regard to the use of capitals in article or section titles, that the "normal rules of capitalization" apply. These rules owe a lot to custom and usage (Six Day War, FA Cup, etc) – it is not necessary to make the narrowest interpretation. The argument that the capitalized term Grand Tour has a specific meaning in relation to the cultural tour is OK when the words are used in isolation, but on Wikipedia we already have other qualified "grand tours", e.g. Grand Tour (cycling), Planetary Grand Tour, Corris Railway Grand Tour. The repeated reference in sources to the family's Grand Tour makes a case that this capitalization is normal. I don't know who is in a position to give a definitive ruling on this interpretation, nor do I think this is the most important aspect of the article, even though it seems to be causing the most discussion, but that's FAC for you, I suppose. Brianboulton (talk) 10:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: I'm pretty sure some of these spaced endashes are incorrect, but please verify with Tony1 or Dukeof Waltham. September 1765 – March 1766 is correct, but it should be Early stages (July–November 1763). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you, Sandy, you are right. WP:MOS#Dashes is specific on this particular point, and I have altered the Early stages heading accordingly. I don't think there are other instances in the text, but am checking. Brianboulton (talk) 09:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Have checked - nothing. Brianboulton (talk) 09:44, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks, Brian. It's weird that now they look inconsistent, but I guess that's correct according to the dash gurus! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Concerns resolved, Vassyana (talk) 19:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. This article, taken as a whole, is very good. It is generally well-written and well-sourced. That said, this article uses far too many quotations. Quotes should be used sparingly for illustration and effect, not as a matter of course. Some examples (randomly selected):
  • It was Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, however, who eventually became recognised among prodigies as the "benchmark of quality and early promise". (It could be simply stated that Mozart set the standard for prodigies of his era.)
  • Their musical education began "from the cradle", through the constant rehearsing and playing of Leopold and his fellow musicians. (It could be simply stated that their education started from an early age.)
  • Jane Glover says that "fired by having met J.C. Bach and heard his symphonies, [Wolfgang] decided to compose some of his own". (This quotation is not so distinctive that a simple paraphrase would fail to suffice.)
  • Hildesheimer likens this part of the tour to a travelling circus, comparing the Mozarts to a "family of acrobats". (This could be stated as-is without quotation marks.)

The use of quotations is rather excessive, detracting from the quality of the article, rather than being used for the benefit of the reader. This is not to say that all of the quotations in the article are bad, by any means. Some positive examples of quotation use in the article:

  • When Nannerl was seven her father began to teach her to play the harpsicord, with Wolfgang looking on; according to Nannerl's own account "the boy immediately showed his extraordinary, God-given talent. He often spent long periods at the clavier, picking out thirds, and his pleasure showed that they sounded good to him [...] When he was five years old he was composing little pieces which he would play to his father who would write them down".
  • Grimm was effusive about the development of both children; Nannerl, he wrote, "had the finest and most brilliant execution on the harpsichord", and: "no-one but her brother can rob her of supremacy".
The former quotes add nothing in particular to the article. The material could easily be served by standard paraphrasing. The latter quotes do well in adding a bit of color to the article and would not be well-served by paraphrasing. If I can help clarify the distinction between "good" and "bad" quotes, or my concern in general, please do not hesitate to let me know. This is a problem that should be relatively easy to address and it is my only significant concern with the article. If this is resolved, I would be pleased to support this otherwise fantastic article. Vassyana (talk) 14:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am grateful to you for pointing this out. I hadn't realised the extent to which I was overusing quotations and/or quote marks, and I have to agree that the prose is improved by a little more discrimination.
I have dealt with those in your upper list, and a good many more besides; the article edit history will indicate what I have done. I have in the main kept as direct quotes the extracts from Leopold's letters, Nannerl's writings, the comments of contemporary observers such as Grimm, von Zinzendorf, Goethe etc., and extracts from notices and advertisements. Generally I have removed the quote marks from the cited comments of the biographers and music analysts, except where I think the comment has a particular bite, e.g. Zaslaw's remark quoed at the end of the Paris section. Otherwise I have either used paraphrases, or just dropped the quotes.
I believe I can justify the present level of quotation usage, but do let me know if you think there are other questionable instances. Also I would like to thank you for your generous comments about the article in general. Brianboulton (talk) 19:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for such a positive response! Reviewing the article again, it is much improved and most of the remaining quotes stand out appropriately. For remaining quotes of concern: There are two in the first paragraph of "Musical" (not the Grimm quote). Otherwise, you seem to have addressed my concerns very well. Vassyana (talk) 19:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, missed these last two. I've fixed them now. Brianboulton (talk) 21:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. My only reservation, an excessive use of quotations, has been quickly and genially resolved. This is a very well-written and well-sourced article that more than satisfies the FA criteria. Vassyana (talk) 19:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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